Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

[missing1leg]

First thanks everyone!

Then to answer a couple questions.

.
First, clothing - is there a way to know ahead of time what will cause chafing? My armpit is raw from a sports bra that I considered to be tested and proven okay - it's done fine for two 74-mile hikes. I also have unexpected thigh chafing from my shorts, and I didn't feel any rubbing while on the erg. Is this just inevitable, or is there a way to get ahead of some of this? Is this why David had multiple outfit changes?

Also, sweet things were starting to taste sickeningly sweet midway through. I forced myself to drink Gatorade plus water on the first day and the juice/water/salt mix someone else mentioned on the second day, plus banana, and like a third of a Gu (I couldn't keep consuming the Gu - it was awful). I tried a Clif Bar on the 50k which settled better than the other stuff. Are there good salty foods that sit well in your stomachs for these long events?

The clothing. I wore rowing trou (which are just compression shorts) and cotton t-shirts. I sweat approximately 1.25L per hour. My clothes just get soaked every couple hours regardless or temperature or air circulation. My experience is anything that's wet and moving can lead to blisters. I had tape to deal with those but wanted to avoid it if at all possible. My butt was mildly chaffed after the 100k but I had no issues with that at 50k or under.

Nutrition is going to be super individual and may vary time of year, time of day, temperature what will work for you. For me, I just used GU rocktane grape (I lost count but I think it was approximately 10 21oz bottles of this) and 2 peanut butter cliff bars for the 100k. The 50k was same 2 cliff bars but just plain water. My marathon last year was just water. The best bet is to have lots of things on hand that have worked for you in the past and practice with them all doing long training pieces.

The podcast has run its course at this point and it was always more focused on running ultra marathons, but Science of Ultra Podcast (https://www.scienceofultra.com/) was an excellent all around resource for me over the last 5ish months as I listened to all of them. A lot of the material is applicable to any ultra endurance event though obviously the foot care type episodes are less valuable for rowing.

[Elizabeth]

Thank you, David, that's very helpful. I was just rowing in the sports bra, heart rate monitor, 3" compression shorts, and various bandanas/buffs to help with sweat and keeping hair out my eyes. I assume the trou fit pretty tight? I wonder if I need to size down in the shorts.

I typically just have black coffee before I row and nothing during, so it sounds like step 1 is to start experimenting with different things during the longer sessions.

I've subscribed to the podcast to go back and listen to old episodes - it looks like they have some food ones. I lost a toenail in the fall training for a half marathon, so I could probably use foot care tips as well.

[missing1leg]

My rowing shorts are basically skin tight with no wiggle room anywhere and just barely longer than my stump (4" or so I think, lol shorter than anything I wear in public by a lot) which is perfect since having to tuck away actual excess shorts material was both a hazards and a pain and produced a pocket of heat for literal puddles of sweat to form which was really annoying. I have some really minimal headbands with a silicone strip that keeps sweat mostly on top of my head as long as I change them out every 30 mins or so.

My workouts up to the 50k I have some water prior and during and otherwise did all of them fasted (I stop eating around 1300 day prior, my rowing is around 0500). Leading up to the 100k my training plan incorporated back to back long rows which started at 16k and ended at 40k each (so 40k row Friday then another on Saturday). These pieces I started doing fueling during the workouts to test what would or would not work for me in terms of different energy sources, foods, drinks, etc

I hope you enjoy the podcast! I listened to all of them and found it hugely interesting, educational, and entertaining. There are a ton of great nutrition episodes and I particularly enjoyed all of the psychology ones.

[GlennUk]

David, that's truly phenomenal!

I have been dipping my toes in the world of endurance erging as part of the Concept2 Century/Marathon challenge, with a Marathon on Friday (just under 3 hours) and a 50k on Sunday (just under 4) and have some questions for the more experienced rowers in this thread. I realize that there will be a certain degree of discomfort on these long rows.

Id say your experience is building very quickly based on this performance.

First, clothing - is there a way to know ahead of time what will cause chafing? My armpit is raw from a sports bra that I considered to be tested and proven okay - it's done fine for two 74-mile hikes. I also have unexpected thigh chafing from my shorts, and I didn't feel any rubbing while on the erg. Is this just inevitable, or is there a way to get ahead of some of this? Is this why David had multiple outfit changes?

I wear compression leggings and long sleeve tops (OMIL Alert!!!). I find if i don't, the inside of the arms rubs on the seams on the legs and i get soreness (if i have a seam on my shorts/leggings it makes it much much worse). Also i find that wearing no underwear removes the chances of pressure points from seams in the posterior dept.

I would recommend that whatever you find that works, don't change before a long sessions.

Re changing, i changed once during my 11.5hr session, bit of a mistake, the soggy kit came off, the dry kit wouldn't go back on a sweaty body. I probably wouldn't change when i do a long erg again. Although i would have kit on standby in case and deal with the issues as they arose.

Also, sweet things were starting to taste sickeningly sweet midway through. I forced myself to drink Gatorade plus water on the first day and the juice/water/salt mix someone else mentioned on the second day, plus banana, and like a third of a Gu (I couldn't keep consuming the Gu - it was awful). I tried a Clif Bar on the 50k which settled better than the other stuff. Are there good salty foods that sit well in your stomachs for these long events?

Re drink, i would use whatever suits you and monitor fluid intake during training to get an idea of what you need to consume. There are a lot of opinions about re what to drink, how often etc.

I kept it simple, used unsweetened orange squash (its what we have at home) , added teaspoon of sugar and 5g of salt (its form bulk, supposedly different to table salt, who knows!!!)

Drink according to your plan, not someone else's. The training plan i followed recommended an amount of fluid i could not drink in an hour, i drank small amounts about every 30 mins, after 11.5hours i had lost c.350mls of fluid. To be dehydrated typical values are around 2% body weight IIRC, meaning for me i would have had to have lost c2litres of fluid.

I am not suggesting you limit your intake, merely that you try to gain an understanding of your bodies need.

On the food front keep it simple, if your training has prepared you well physically, eating small amount often seems key. Again there are many opinions but whatever you do you need to find what suits you. I ate bananas and pieces of serial bar.

Nothing fancy, remember, if you are eating it because you need it it doesn't matter what it tastes like, only that it is sufficiently palatable to you that it doesn't affect your peforamnce.

I would add, that for distance up to a marathon, i am not sure whether eating and drinking is absolutely essential, assuming you are well nourished and hydrated when you start. There will of course be exceptions e.g. extremes of heat especially, however outside of that, i am struggling to see the need for regular intakes of food and drink.

Again, not saying dont, but suggesting that it is more about want, than physical need for me at least. Others will have their views.

Last, not a question but a comment, the pace-based formula that I mentioned earlier broke down a bit for me. I rowed a recent half-marathon at a 2:00.1 average pace, and the marathon at a 2:06.2 average pace - doubled the distance, added 6 seconds to the pace (not 5). Both felt like very solid efforts. I did have to make a quick pit stop during the marathon that may have contributed to the slower overall pace.

Ultimately if you are trying to set the best times you can it will be your physiology that is the limiting factor. Training will improve your capabilities, but rowing to a pace in endurance terms is imho, not the best approach. If you row to a pace and conditions are such it is too fast for you, your HR will rise and you wont be able to maintain and possibly finish your piece.

During a long row, conditions can change signfciantly, both with respect to your performance and the environment within which you are erging. For example, my session yesterday was 4 x 15min r1.5mins at 75% HRmax.

My my temp was c.30C when i started. I had in mind a target pace of c.2:25.x with a HR value of 137bpm maximum.

I opened windows/doors and have a large floor fan blowing, but the first rep was closer to 2:30.x with HR above my target, and after the room had cooled down somewhat, the final rep was the fastest of the four with HR below the target value.

On a 3 or 8,9,10 hr erg, conditions can easily fluctuate as can how you perform on the day, working to a pace doesn't allow for that. Working to HR values gives you a better idea of how to change your pace to ensure you can finish your event, arguably in the best time possible IMHO.

I should add that my training is about maintaining the same performance for the duraiont of the row, not negative splits, and this approach seems to work well for me. Others will have their approach.

JMHO

Glenn

[GlennUk]

I assume the trou fit pretty tight? I wonder if I need to size down in the shorts.

As a word of caution, i have been wearing compression shorts/leggings/tops since i started erging, make sure dont go too tight, it can restrict breathing. I don't mean going silly, but a size smaller can make a difference as i found out when i bought a size too small top.

Over short distances it doesn't make any noticeable difference to me (im too slow to see that), but over a longer distance/durations i find that the restriction of the chest/abdomen appears to restrict my ability to fully oxygenate.

I also felt the same about trying to lengthen my stroke, I was leaning forward against my thighs at the catch, again over short distances no noticeable issues, but over the longer distances i found my HR was higher for a given pace/duration than taking a more 'natural' stroke.

The long and the short of it is, anything which potentially restricts your bodies ability to take on O2 will likely be a problem for endurance rowing, which i guess is unsurprising.

[Dangerscouse]

I wear compression leggings and long sleeve tops (OMIL Alert!!!). I find if i don't, the inside of the arms rubs on the seams on the legs and i get soreness (if i have a seam on my shorts/leggings it makes it much much worse). Also i find that wearing no underwear removes the chances of pressure points from seams in the posterior dept.

For a long row, I smear some vaseline on my inner biceps and outer knees, as the salt in my sweat eventually start rubbing and chafing.

For me, if I had a long sleeve top on I'd get too hot.

[GlennUk]

For a long row, I smear some vaseline on my inner biceps and outer knees, as the salt in my sweat eventually start rubbing and chafing.

For me, if I had a long sleeve top on I'd get too hot.

not tried that, re getting too hot, i find that a strong floor fan deals with most of the heat issues, with my kit, although it does hold some water, the breeze generally helps with cooling by means of evaporation.

[MPx]

Interesting to read about your long ergs. Not something I do (or want to do) and I have a self imposed HM ceiling. But would still contribute this on kit:

I erg in no-seam running shorts (very loose) and a running singlet - feels very free and easy for normal length pieces. All items are technical fabric which wick away and absorb sweat. After an hour or so the sweat will literally drip out of them if held up. Because I'm not going any further that's not an issue for me but I suspect would be on a marathon as the kit is significantly heavier when wet and I would get chaffing on torso near armpits and probably legs. My only very long elapsed time session was taking part in a team 100k event over about 5.5 hours. Even at just twenty strokes every 4mins or so I needed a change of kit and felt sooooo much better when I got some dry stuff back on soon after half way. As its loose stuff I found no difficulty putting it on my wet body.

[Dangerscouse]

I erg in no-seam running shorts (very loose) and a running singlet - feels very free and easy for normal length pieces. All items are technical fabric which wick away and absorb sweat. After an hour or so the sweat will literally drip out of them if held up. Because I'm not going any further that's not an issue for me but I suspect would be on a marathon as the kit is significantly heavier when wet and I would get chaffing on torso near armpits and probably legs.

I wear polyester longish shorts, tank tops and basketball vests, which are also polyester. Personally I've never got chafing on armpits, but inner biceps are quite often an issue, even if it's only a HM. I can also get it directly under my HR strap, after a long row.

Ime, you don't notice the wet kit until you get off and stop for a while as your thoughts are all about, wtf am I doing? Have I drank enough? Why is that hurting? How much further to go etc.

[Dangerscouse]

not tried that, re getting too hot, i find that a strong floor fan deals with most of the heat issues, with my kit, although it does hold some water, the breeze generally helps with cooling by means of evaporation.

I've got an 18 inch floor fan too, but I got hot, and sweat, quite easily. Apparently that's a good thing, but it doesn't feel like it.

[GlennUk]

not tried that, re getting too hot, i find that a strong floor fan deals with most of the heat issues, with my kit, although it does hold some water, the breeze generally helps with cooling by means of evaporation.

I've got an 18 inch floor fan too, but I got hot, and sweat, quite easily. Apparently that's a good thing, but it doesn't feel like it.

Know the feeling!

[GlennUk]

Ime, you don't notice the wet kit until you get off and stop for a while as your thoughts are all about, wtf am I doing? Have I drank enough? Why is that hurting? How much further to go etc.

That was my thought, i changed because i could and then regretted the faffing about, couldnt get the new top on was like a scene from a Mr Bean sketch!!!

Takie Mikes point, i do agree it felt good o have new kit, but unless i had a real issue with the kit when i do i next time i doubt ill change. I wil have spare everything to hand though, just in case, i was boy scout after all

#beprepared

[Elizabeth]

All of the clothing talk is really interesting! I do 20-30k in a single session most weekends with no chafing issues (other than occasionally my tailbone). My erg is in an unheated garage, so that's looked pretty different at different times, but typically spandex bottoms (leggings or shorts), bra, long-sleeved athletic shirt if the temperature calls for it. I hit problems with my January marathon, as well as the two 42k+ sessions this month, so it seems like there's some distance threshold where it becomes more likely.

I did a much better job of keeping my hands dry this month, so the hand blisters are minimal. I'm learning.

The shorts Sunday were size XL, and sizing down to L shouldn't cut off circulation (5'11"/165#) - I hope!

[GlennUk]

I hit problems with my January marathon, as well as the two 42k+ sessions this month, so it seems like there's some distance threshold where it becomes more likely.

I did a much better job of keeping my hands dry this month, so the hand blisters are minimal. I'm learning.

That's interesting, what issues did you have on those attempts?

I erg in an unheated home gym, winter temps down to c.8C, the downside is that temps in the summer can routinely be high 20s/low to mid 30s due to solar gain. I dont find my clothing makes much difference apart from the chaffing issues on the inside of my forearms. I often suffer with blisters between my buttocks whatever i wear (sorry if that's TMI) and i cannot work out what causes it, its not enough to cause me to stop (or hasn't so far).

Re hands, i tried a number of things, but have settled on tubular bandage on the handles and nothing else. On long rows, i keep plasters and tape handy in case of any soreness, but otherwise i don't have any issues.

[Elizabeth]

I hit problems with my January marathon, as well as the two 42k+ sessions this month, so it seems like there's some distance threshold where it becomes more likely.

I did a much better job of keeping my hands dry this month, so the hand blisters are minimal. I'm learning.

That's interesting, what issues did you have on those attempts?

I erg in an unheated home gym, winter temps down to c.8C, the downside is that temps in the summer can routinely be high 20s/low to mid 30s due to solar gain. I dont find my clothing makes much difference apart from the chaffing issues on the inside of my forearms. I often suffer with blisters between my buttocks whatever i wear (sorry if that's TMI) and i cannot work out what causes it, its not enough to cause me to stop (or hasn't so far).

Re hands, i tried a number of things, but have settled on tubular bandage on the handles and nothing else. On long rows, i keep plasters and tape handy in case of any soreness, but otherwise i don't have any issues.

I've really been trying to think back to January, and all I can distinctly remember was tailbone rawness and bad hand blisters, so that may have been it. I had pre-taped my hands anticipating issues, and that was not a good choice. The leukotape started slowly migrating and then it wasn't doing anything productive and there was sticky stuff everywhere.

This time, I meant to buy wrist sweatbands but forgot (life got busy), so I tied bandanas around my wrists to help absorb sweat. It worked surprisingly well. I had a single blister after the marathon, which expanded to three after the 50k. And then the tailbone, armpit and thigh chafing I already mentioned. I wonder if the aggregate effect of 42k + 50k made the chafing worse than either alone would have. I only noticed the armpit and thigh issues after it was all done.