Anyone have any experience with the SmartRow handle yet?
Anyone have any experience with the SmartRow handle yet?
I was pointed to this handle: https://smartrow.fit/smartrow-power-handle/
The concept is promissing, especially as a load cell should be able to produce more accurate force curves than the PM5 can. But measuring displacement (and thus power and speed) is mire difficult. Any experience with this device and how it stacks up against our trusted PM5? Anyone have rowed with it and how the feel compares to the stock RowErg handle?
The concept is promissing, especially as a load cell should be able to produce more accurate force curves than the PM5 can. But measuring displacement (and thus power and speed) is mire difficult. Any experience with this device and how it stacks up against our trusted PM5? Anyone have rowed with it and how the feel compares to the stock RowErg handle?
Package maintainer of OpenRowingMonitor, the open source Rowing Monitor
Re: Anyone have any experience with the SmartRow handle yet?
Looks interesting. Only in NL so far.
I'd be more interested in controlling apps well enough to use web and email than to get force curves.
I agree with you that measuring position might be a challenge. Maybe they have some sort of gyro/geo built in but if they do they don't seem to brag about it. And I don't know how accurate it would be. I wonder how precisely the tech from a smartphone/smartwatch would be able to guess displacement.
I'd be more interested in controlling apps well enough to use web and email than to get force curves.
I agree with you that measuring position might be a challenge. Maybe they have some sort of gyro/geo built in but if they do they don't seem to brag about it. And I don't know how accurate it would be. I wonder how precisely the tech from a smartphone/smartwatch would be able to guess displacement.
Re: Anyone have any experience with the SmartRow handle yet?
There is the ErgRemote, which is more budget friendly and has more buttons.
They were not the first to try this approach. Getting displacement right is tough, which made their predecessors fail. A gyro/accelerometer tells you acceleration, and thus finding speed and displacement sounds easy in theory, but getting past measurement noise is tough. Especially when it involves three axis. In essence it is the same issue the PM5 has, only from the opposite side: the PM5 knows the displacement, but getting the force is dependent on the second derivative of the displacement, which is total chaos due to measurement noise.gvcormac wrote: ↑May 4th, 2025, 11:21 amI agree with you that measuring position might be a challenge. Maybe they have some sort of gyro/geo built in but if they do they don't seem to brag about it. And I don't know how accurate it would be. I wonder how precisely the tech from a smartphone/smartwatch would be able to guess displacement.
And drive length isn't that large. A few centimeters makes a huge difference in overall power. But having exceptional components might work. Given their price (roughly 300 euro), I'd expect better components than a smartwatch or smartphone.
Package maintainer of OpenRowingMonitor, the open source Rowing Monitor
Re: Anyone have any experience with the SmartRow handle yet?
The ONE thing I'd like in a smart handle is sadly lacking. Embedded HR monitor.
Smart handle is the perfect place for a heart rate monitor. Trivial cost off-the-shelf sensor used in tons of fitness equipment, and the handle needs battery power and bluetooth regardless. Jsut standard metal grip pads and the rowers hands stay on the grips. With this you'd no longer needs a HR belt to get accurate HR measurements.

Interesting point on better force curve. How would this be used?
Question, if you had this handle, and your were (correctly) 100% sure the handle's wattage and split were correct, and you rowed a 7:05 2K according to your PM5, but the smart handlebar said 6:55... which would you put in your signature and tell your friends? Likely you post whatever the PM5 says, right or wrong.
I don't really understand how the handle helps if you already have a C2 erg. C2 reported metrics are hugely consistent. It's less clear they are accurate, but not sure who cares about that. If the smart handle results are different than C2 PM5 results, then not clear what benefit you have by putting this on your non-C2 erg... you exchange one (incompatible) measurement for another (more accurate, but still incompatible) measurement.
Smart handle is the perfect place for a heart rate monitor. Trivial cost off-the-shelf sensor used in tons of fitness equipment, and the handle needs battery power and bluetooth regardless. Jsut standard metal grip pads and the rowers hands stay on the grips. With this you'd no longer needs a HR belt to get accurate HR measurements.
Interesting point on better force curve. How would this be used?
Question, if you had this handle, and your were (correctly) 100% sure the handle's wattage and split were correct, and you rowed a 7:05 2K according to your PM5, but the smart handlebar said 6:55... which would you put in your signature and tell your friends? Likely you post whatever the PM5 says, right or wrong.
I don't really understand how the handle helps if you already have a C2 erg. C2 reported metrics are hugely consistent. It's less clear they are accurate, but not sure who cares about that. If the smart handle results are different than C2 PM5 results, then not clear what benefit you have by putting this on your non-C2 erg... you exchange one (incompatible) measurement for another (more accurate, but still incompatible) measurement.
Re: Anyone have any experience with the SmartRow handle yet?
VOICE. Look into some of the voice control apps. Think you can do this with your current phone without new hardware.
android for example, https://support.google.com/accessibilit ... 1848?hl=en IOS has similar.
(Aside: it would kill me to do email while rowing.)
(Aside2: How exactly do you pretend to be a bot? I'm struggling)
Re: Anyone have any experience with the SmartRow handle yet?
1. I BikeErg every day while I do email, read papers, etc. I'm not sure if anything would give me enough control to row while doing same, but it might be interesting to try. Or maybe SkiErg ... there you can take one hand away for a while but if you let go of the handle you need to break stride.Tsnor wrote: ↑May 4th, 2025, 1:13 pmVOICE. Look into some of the voice control apps. Think you can do this with your current phone without new hardware.
android for example, https://support.google.com/accessibilit ... 1848?hl=en IOS has similar.
(Aside: it would kill me to do email while rowing.)
(Aside2: How exactly do you pretend to be a bot? I'm struggling)
2. Me?
Re: Anyone have any experience with the SmartRow handle yet?
sorry, bad wording. (Aside2: How exactly does a person (me) pretend to be a bot? I'm struggling) Going back to this post which died an early death. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=209739gvcormac wrote: ↑May 4th, 2025, 3:31 pm1. I BikeErg every day while I do email, read papers, etc. I'm not sure if anything would give me enough control to row while doing same, but it might be interesting to try. Or maybe SkiErg ... there you can take one hand away for a while but if you let go of the handle you need to break stride.Tsnor wrote: ↑May 4th, 2025, 1:13 pmVOICE. Look into some of the voice control apps. Think you can do this with your current phone without new hardware.
android for example, https://support.google.com/accessibilit ... 1848?hl=en IOS has similar.
(Aside: it would kill me to do email while rowing.)
(Aside2: How exactly do you pretend to be a bot? I'm struggling)
Voice should work fine for you. Free, and very well tested by the accessibility community. No need for hands.
2. Me?
Re: Anyone have any experience with the SmartRow handle yet?
I haven't seen anything here that resembles a bot. Troll, yes (one in particular), bot not bot. On the other hand, YouTube is infested with AI-generated crap. It is almost impossible to find anything new beyond your current subscriptions that isn't AI. How sad.Tsnor wrote: ↑May 4th, 2025, 5:22 pm
sorry, bad wording. (Aside2: How exactly does a person (me) pretend to be a bot? I'm struggling) Going back to this post which died an early death. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=209739
Re: Anyone have any experience with the SmartRow handle yet?
A couple of concerns I have with this regarding their method of attaching their handle to the C2 chain swivel. They are using a steel (probably stainless steel) fastener that interfaces with the stainless steel swivel body. With any movement between these two parts there will be resulting wear. But the bigger issue is that by removing the U-bolt they introduce side forces to the chain in the event that you are not pulling perfectly straight on the handle, which can lead to chain failure. Early chain attachment methods on the C2 Model B did not utilize the swivel connector and there were an unacceptable number of chain failures. The swivel connector virtually eliminated this problem and unless there is something I'm not seeing in the video I would think it's use would not be advised.
73 year old grandpa living in Waterbury Center, Vermont, USA
Concept2 employee 1980-2018! and what a long, strange trip it's been......
Concept2 employee 1980-2018! and what a long, strange trip it's been......
Re: Anyone have any experience with the SmartRow handle yet?
Totally agree with this.
I'm thinking that either 1) they're aware that they have an issue that will undoubtedly be a medium to long term problem for users, but haven't bothered to fix it, or 2) they're a bunch of software guys, so they haven't recognized a mechanical problem, and haven't put enough time on their design for the issue to become obvious to them. Either way, it's a bad sign about their compatibilities as a team to provide a quality product.
Re: Anyone have any experience with the SmartRow handle yet?
Though I appreciate using logic, there's some fallacy in missing axioms. Reducing it to (1) and (2) may be such a situation. Thus I suggest adding (3): The history of the swivel connector as pointed out by c2jonw may not be known publicly very well. So how could they know then?I'm thinking that either 1) they're aware that they have an issue that will undoubtedly be a medium to long term problem for users, but haven't bothered to fix it, or 2) they're a bunch of software guys, so they haven't recognized a mechanical problem, and haven't put enough time on their design for the issue to become obvious to them. Either way, it's a bad sign about their compatibilities as a team to provide a quality product.
I can assure you that Smartrow put some considerable effort and time in developing that device and also had it tested more than a year before the release. They are not "just a bunch of software guys". It's a family business with dedicated people, I had the chance to get to know a little. The "not-software-only" aspect can be seen in the handle and also the pulley they developed on their own. It's not just a matter of software. This also requires some serious knowledge in electrical engineering and physics and how to measure power in rowing at all. Their pulley has also been tested by/with the university of Amsterdam, so I assume that there is also some science behind it.
I had the chance to participate in that test of the SmartRow handle. I know of at least two other indoor-rowers using that handle during that time, one of which is John Steventon (Rowalong on YT). The handle could be spotted in some of his videos. Also a little disclaimer before I go on, I am not Oliver Zeidler nor Steve Redgrave. I am rather pushing at average power for an end-forty-hobby-indoor-rower. My C2 is used privately and I am not offering gym service. That being said, I did around 2500km-2800km within 15months with a prototype of the handle (having the same connection but a different locking and cork grip, which is now silicon in production model). After reading this thread I checked my rowerg but could not spot visible tear on my C2s chain or the connector. I am also not aware of pulling not-straight but I also handle my rowerg with some care, which others may not. That experience of course is no statistically relevant data, but at least it's an anecdotal data point to take into account.
Therefore, suggesting they don't care is way of reality, unfair or at least predjudiced. In order to fix that, I did inform them about this suspicion of a possible point of failure and I'm quite confident they will check and evaluate this, now that they're aware of the situation.
regards, T.
Re: Anyone have any experience with the SmartRow handle yet?
Follow a basic mechanical engineering course? It is a general issue with this type of connection, as is the steel-on-steel friction requiring the brass ring. One could hope to get away with it as forces aren't that big and left-right imbalance is physically limited. But everyone with a bit of mechanical training instantly recognizes the first attempt and the subsequent solution: C2 tried to get away with a simple connector, but reality wouldn't allow it.
Yeah. Do you have a copy of that study or a link to it? I tried to find it but I couldn't get it. As I am a frequent lecturer at UvA/VU I tried to get into contact with the named researchers or the lab behind it (to test OpenRowingMonitor), but I couldn't find them.
Package maintainer of OpenRowingMonitor, the open source Rowing Monitor
Re: Anyone have any experience with the SmartRow handle yet?
The document they use is available on their website. I am well aware that you do know this, since we had an exchange about this before. If it wasn't legally allowed, the university should (and probably would) for sure take legal steps to prevent an abuse of their name and brand. Which they haven't yet as it seems. However, here is the advertised document referring to that study as revealed by a simple Google search: https://smartrow.fit/images/smartrow-wo ... xcerpt.pdfYeah. Do you have a copy of that study or a link to it? I
Maybe the paper resulted out of work by a student, scientist or another "frequent lecturer" gone in the meantime? L. L. Lintmeijer seems to be working in Delft now, while van Soest is still recorded as working at Amsterdam UMC - as Google tells. IDK for what reason you didn't get the requestet documents, but you also have not get any other documents or response proofing them wrong. Thus, deducing from a non result, that it is all a lie is ...again a logical fallacy at best.
I can't help but read a certain degree of antipathy going beyond healthy criticism. It seems that a new product shall be discussed into the ground without having tried it actually. So before this escalates into a flame war I just cite the response received from SMart Row asking for their opinion on the issues raised here - notice, that this response has been sent not even 3h after I contacted them. So they DO care.
Hm, maybe it's still better to talk WITH people than ABOUT them before judging?we've added some space between the connector and the swivel bushing to make some side forces possible. When rowing normally, we haven't seen any problems and we do not expect any.
Anyway I think after a year of good use I can confirm their response without a guilty conscience. I do not claim to be a psychic able to tell the future, but based on the facts and experience I have now, those indicate that they may have a point. Of course your doubts may remain yours. I mean, no one is forcing you to spend money on this product.
best wishes, T.
Re: Anyone have any experience with the SmartRow handle yet?
That is just a sort-of-summary, not a report or peer-reviewed paper. Normally, research like this gets published in a peer-reviewed journal. Like Ulm university did with the Concept2, where both methods and results were published. Ulm confirmed some issues with the PM5.
I'm quite interested in this, as VU would have been a lot more practical for me than Ulm to run tests, especially when I'm around there twice a week and can drop by.
Which indeed is exemplified by my opening statement:
Really a shining example of unhealthy antipathy going beyond healthy criticism indeed.
But, some things can be seen from design or construction. In fact, in most engineering projects, that is when we explicitly look for issues as it takes time and a lot of claims to resolve them. And Jon points out quite some issues. And as he's probably seen the warranty claims come in, so I trust him that these issues C2 were present in the wild. No need to repeat a mistake others made before us.
I'm not their third party validator, nor I'm looking for marketing material.t2o wrote: ↑June 16th, 2025, 11:30 amSo before this escalates into a flame war I just cite the response received from SMart Row asking for their opinion on the issues raised here - notice, that this response has been sent not even 3h after I contacted them. So they DO care.
Hm, maybe it's still better to talk WITH people than ABOUT them before judging?we've added some space between the connector and the swivel bushing to make some side forces possible. When rowing normally, we haven't seen any problems and we do not expect any.
As you might see from my first post: I am a consumer looking for info based on unbiassed experiences before I buy it. It is quite an expensive addition to my machine, and for that price I like to be sure it is worth investing in.
From a software perspective, with OpenRowingMonitor/ESPRowingMonitor we supported a small team in developing an extremely similar product. They would use our top-layer on top of a different physics engine, thus providing the handle with a FTMS and PM5 emulation, allowing direct connection to apps and games, and direct upload to Strava etc. It failed as it is nearly impossible to get a decent position/speed estimate out of an accelerometer, as the math isn't robust enough against measurement noise. So I am sceptic about accuracy as I've seen first-hand how tough it is to get this approach reliable. So I want to be sure the product is even reliable before I consider putting a lot of money in.
From a mechanical perspective, my gut feeling says that a couple of mil won't cut it for me, as single handed use happens quite a lot when getting rid of sweat. I rather have a U swivel and keep my chain safe.
I'm more than happy to spend money on it, that is why I opened this thread to begin with. I'm just looking at some unbiassed experiences with this device.t2o wrote: ↑June 16th, 2025, 11:30 amAnyway I think after a year of good use I can confirm their response without a guilty conscience. I do not claim to be a psychic able to tell the future, but based on the facts and experience I have now, those indicate that they may have a point. Of course your doubts may remain yours.
I mean, no one is forcing you to spend money on this product.
Package maintainer of OpenRowingMonitor, the open source Rowing Monitor
Re: Anyone have any experience with the SmartRow handle yet?
I apologize for misinterpreting your post. In context with the wild claim of „bunch of software guys“ it may have appeared wrongly.
My biased opinion is, that Id probably not buy the handle if I already have a C2. Clearly a marketing recommendation… (yes irony).
CU around
On the other hand irony doesn’t work well on forums either.Really a shining example of unhealthy antipathy going beyond healthy criticism indeed.
My biased opinion is, that Id probably not buy the handle if I already have a C2. Clearly a marketing recommendation… (yes irony).
CU around