Best way to improve technique?

[Annisotropic]

TLDR: I have rowed and erged in the past, but without much input from others. I probably have a lot of bad habits, I'm not sure how to identify and reverse them.

When I started erging in May, my only focus was burning calories to help weight loss. I was complacent about technique because I'd rowed and erged a fair bit in the past and my paces are respectable (if the rowing levels site is to be believed?).

I'm halfway through the BPP, and considering what comes next - I'm intrigued by the Wolverine Plan, and after a lot more googling than I thought it would need, have found the original plan, and believe that I understand how to follow it. I'm retired, and in a better position than ever before, to put in the time and geek out about it.

The thought of the high volume of work, made me consider that I should check my technique, and I now believe that there is a ton of room for improvement, but I'm not sure where to start or what drills to do. My instinct is to row at maximum drag, to help keep the rate low and give me time to think about what's happening - I already have a low stroke rate as default, around 18spm for longer pieces. I can film myself and compare it to the clips on the concept website, but does anyone have any other advice or suggestions, please?

Sorry for the long post. Being retired gives me time to write too much

[Dangerscouse]

My instinct is to row at maximum drag, to help keep the rate low and give me time to think about what's happening - I already have a low stroke rate as default, around 18spm for longer pieces. I can film myself and compare it to the clips on the concept website, but does anyone have any other advice or suggestions, please?

The thought of you rowing at max drag (200+) at r18 gives me palpitations! It might be the best way for you, but I'm 99.9% sure it isn't. Max drag will just massively increase your chances of injury, as the loading will be significantly more, especially at r18.

Please try a drag of circa 100 to start with (a few weeks is good) and then build from there, IF you think you need it and will benefit. That way you'll find your sweet spot, whatever that is, but starting at max is a receipe for disaster unless you can deadlift a car.

If you already automatically row at r18ish then there's no need to make it so that is all you can possibly consider. I'm a big advocate of erging at a wide range of stroke rates on a regular basis. Too much of one end of the spectrum is detrimental if you want to get faster and stronger on the erg.

The C2 videos are great for technique, as is posting a video to the forum. Do you know what parts of your technique are incorrect?

[iain]

Just lost a long answer to this But agree with Stu re DF. changing drag changes the feel of the stroke so no way to grove a better stroke.

RE improving technique, the gold standard is to start by posting a video of yourself from the side at a variety of stroke rates and "normal" power to get advice from forum. Failing that, take video and compare to the training videos available and try and adapt. Less good (or as well) try and get the "Force Curve" to a left leaning haystack without any inflections and concentrate on each aspect of the stroke in turn at a constant rate and see what improves your pace (doesn't help if you already have "compensating errors" where you have adapted your stroke to minimise the impact of another error, removing either error on their own likely to make you slower and you need to remove both to do so).

Re WP, a great plan for the elite College Rowers and Mike who was as elite as a 40 odd year old likely to get, but personally I find the L4s to be too tiring and even 30' does not allow me to recover as required for the "hard" L1 & L2 sessions. I'm sure that its excellent sessions can be used to produce a great plan for anyone, but Mike would dispute that these would be WPs. The PP is one such attempt that is simple, flexible enough to allow incorporating life and other rowing challenges and well suited for those who like to use their innate competitive nature to push them to better efforts, down side is that it is hard to continue for more than 4 months at a go.

Best of luck.

[JaapvanE]

The thought of you rowing at max drag (200+) at r18 gives me palpitations! It might be the best way for you, but I'm 99.9% sure it isn't. Max drag will just massively increase your chances of injury, as the loading will be significantly more, especially at r18.

I completely agree here. Typical novice mistakes escalate quite quickly at high DF's. And high DF's are totally unnessecary, even if you are built like the Hulk (see this video, where the WR holder on the 1000 meter explains it: https://youtu.be/xlifl4fdBlg ).

I personally learned a lot more on extreme low DF's, as it taught me to use a proper leg drive and be patient to get a decent catch.

[MPx]

Good video, thanks for posting. It turns some of my prejudices on their head. I know about sequencing but.... I thought we used straight arms and a strong (locked) core to get the most from the leg drive that I had thought was the most powerful bit. This says (at least for the worlds strongest men) that its the swing that is the most powerful bit. That sounds to me like for a recipe for a back injury or at least (for most normal people) very very tired back muscles. Since I prefer the shorter distances (say up to 4mins) there's a lot I could learn from James but its just so hard to believe that someone with lets say a less noticeable muscle development could learn much from someone with such a different physique. Sounds like first instruction is add 500% muscle mass then come back and see me when you're done.

[Mike Caviston]

I'm intrigued by the Wolverine Plan, and after a lot more googling than I thought it would need, have found the original plan, and believe that I understand how to follow it.

I'll just repost this for future reference:

There is an awful lot of information about the Wolverine Plan that is easily accessible. Of course there is "The Wolverine Plan", which I prepared for the University of Michigan team back in 2001, and which I have emphasized many many times is not a definitive document but simply a CliffNotes-like precis:
https://www.rathburn.net/rowing/trainin ... 20Plan.pdf
Another source of info is to go to my user profile and click on "Search user's posts"; it is easy to scroll through posts and pick out ones that deal with the WP.
Someone collected posts I made on the old UK forum from around 2005 and made a PDF called "Wolverine Plan Remarks":
https://quantifiedrowing.files.wordpres ... -notes.pdf
There is the interview I did for Row2K:
https://www.row2k.com/features/391/mike ... avy-seals/
Probably the best single source is the thread I tried in vain to keep on topic on the old training forum which is archived:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4190
Yes, it is hard to read due to formatting corruption. Someone cleaned it up and sent me a PDF of all my posts (70 pages) but AFAIK it isn't on the internet. BUT it turns out someone archived the thread elsewhere:
http://concept2.van-diepen.nl/forum/Wol ... ion_01.htm

[JaapvanE]

I thought we used straight arms and a strong (locked) core to get the most from the leg drive that I had thought was the most powerful bit. This says (at least for the worlds strongest men) that its the swing that is the most powerful bit. That sounds to me like for a recipe for a back injury or at least (for most normal people) very very tired back muscles.

I agree it might be a sequencing approach that doesn't translate well to mere mortals like us.

What I noticed is that despite having huge arms and legs, he still uses a midrange DF. I always asumed such an extremely muscle-rich person would long for a long powerfull stroke on a short distance. Still the DF stays mid range...

[Annisotropic]

The thought of you rowing at max drag (200+) at r18 gives me palpitations! It might be the best way for you, but I'm 99.9% sure it isn't.


The C2 videos are great for technique, as is posting a video to the forum. Do you know what parts of your technique are incorrect?

To be clear, I don't intend to actually *row* at maximum drag; just slowly go through the motions of strokes, one at a time, until I can identify what I'm actually doing. I'm sure that I use legs first and arms last, but it feels really stilted and jerky if I try not to lean back too early. I suspect that I'm hunched over at the catch, and my back is "uncurling" rather than levering from the hips.

I started using a metronome to establish a 1:2 ratio of drive to recovery - it felt very unnatural at first and took over a week before I could complete a piece that way, but now it's very comfortable. Yesterday I did 4x1500m @16spm, today it was 10k @17spm. When so much is controlled, it's easier to recognise what I'm doing differently on individual strokes, and I might simply need a lot of trial and error to see what works best for me, but I don't want to reinvent the wheel if I can learn from what works for others.

For transparency, I'm 61yo, female, 72kg (down from 85kg 4 months ago, but still another at least 5kg to lose) 176cm tall. My best recent 2k time is 8.40, best 1min is 265m, best 10k was today's 47.43.2, entirely at 17spm. (drag 130)

[Annisotropic]

..... If you already have "compensating errors" where you have adapted your stroke to minimise the impact of another error, removing either error on their own likely to make you slower and you need to remove both to do so).

Yes, I'm quite happy to get slower, if it reduces risk of injury. A few sessions with bad form don't hurt, but longish/intense-ish sessions 6 days a week with bad form would be another story

[Annisotropic]

(see this video, where the WR holder on the 1000 meter explains it: https://youtu.be/xlifl4fdBlg ).

I personally learned a lot more on extreme low DF's, as it taught me to use a proper leg drive and be patient to get a decent catch.

Great clip, really helpful - especially interesting to see the guy's brother with minimal contribution from arms OR legs!

When I use a low DF, I just end up flying and flailing around 🫣

[Annisotropic]

I'm intrigued by the Wolverine Plan, and after a lot more googling than I thought it would need, have found the original plan, and believe that I understand how to follow it.

I'll just repost this for future reference:

There is an awful lot of information about the Wolverine Plan that is easily accessible. Of course there is "The Wolverine Plan", which I prepared for the University of Michigan team back in 2001, and which I have emphasized many many times is not a definitive document but simply a CliffNotes-like precis:
https://www.rathburn.net/rowing/trainin ... 20Plan.pdf
Another source of info is to go to my user profile and click on "Search user's posts"; it is easy to scroll through posts and pick out ones that deal with the WP.
Someone collected posts I made on the old UK forum from around 2005 and made a PDF called "Wolverine Plan Remarks":
https://quantifiedrowing.files.wordpres ... -notes.pdf
There is the interview I did for Row2K:
https://www.row2k.com/features/391/mike ... avy-seals/
Probably the best single source is the thread I tried in vain to keep on topic on the old training forum which is archived:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4190
Yes, it is hard to read due to formatting corruption. Someone cleaned it up and sent me a PDF of all my posts (70 pages) but AFAIK it isn't on the internet. BUT it turns out someone archived the thread elsewhere:
http://concept2.van-diepen.nl/forum/Wol ... ion_01.htm

Thank you so much for all of this - I had seen much of it before, but not all, and not all in one place. It'll take a while to get through the 47-page thread from the old forum, but I've already seen a lot in there that is helpful.

[dabatey]

Wolverine Plan does take a lot of reading. Pay attention to what's said about pacing, and being incremental in your interval gains.

One thing I found was that I needed to notch down a bit on the recommended paces for L4 to keep them a decent length, and that probably sync's with what Ian said about the L4's being too tiring (assuming of course he followed the pace-spm in the table).

[Annisotropic]

Wolverine Plan does take a lot of reading. Pay attention to what's said about pacing, and being incremental in your interval gains.

I feel like it's the perfect balance of "look, just work hard, OK?" and "but if you want detail, there is so much detail, you'll never feel like you know it all - there will always be more layers to excavate".

I did eventually find the tables with the recommended paces, and the different ways to construct the level 4 sequences, but until I found those, it was very difficult to understand the notes.

[jamesg]

I thought we used straight arms and a strong (locked) core to get the most from the leg drive that I had thought was the most powerful bit.

Exactly. Usual procedure is start the stroke with the legs (ie knees and hips), to get high acceleration right from the catch. Then the shoulders that can act faster, at the finish.

I'm 61yo, female, 72kg, 176cm tall. My best recent 2k time is 8.40

Your technique is perfect: 160W at 72kg in a 2k.

[dabatey]

The thought of you rowing at max drag (200+) at r18 gives me palpitations! It might be the best way for you, but I'm 99.9% sure it isn't. Max drag will just massively increase your chances of injury, as the loading will be significantly more, especially at r18.

I completely agree here. Typical novice mistakes escalate quite quickly at high DF's. And high DF's are totally unnessecary, even if you are built like the Hulk (see this video, where the WR holder on the 1000 meter explains it: https://youtu.be/xlifl4fdBlg ).

I personally learned a lot more on extreme low DF's, as it taught me to use a proper leg drive and be patient to get a decent catch.

I wonder if James Hall is teaching more of a 'sprinter stroke'. I know when I do 8 x 500 that I shorten the leg portion and things probably become more hip heavy. (He is of course after maximal power for a shortish time with 1000m). However I did watch a video recently by Eric Murray where he mentioned that folk focus too much on the initial portion of the leg drive and instead should pull smoothly and build power throughout the stroke, which seems to fall in line with what James is saying.