SkiErg first impressions

[kini62]

Hi all,

I finally managed to buy a 2nd hand SkiErg, now sitting right next to a RowErg in my garage.

For the time being, I use the SkiErg only as warm-up & cool-down in 3 out of 4 of my weekly rowing sessions, typically 10min warm-up and 10min cool-down. Only other workouts I've tried on the SikErg are a 20min steady and a 5x (2min fast, 1min slow), where "fast" and "slow" are relative to my ridiculous level on the SkiErg.

What I can say after 1 month:

1. There's no chain, maintenance is even lower than the (already very low) RowErg. Love no-maintenance machines.
2. Very pleased by how complementary it is with respect to the RowErg: upper body + abs + calves. After only 1 month (56Km at a snail avg pace of 2:32/500m) I now have abs muscles I didn't have before. To the point it feels weird/unusual when I'm sitting in from of my PC.
3. Overall, I think it's kind of a better machine for general public: mainly, less problems than a RowErg (sitting & back pain), less legs-oriented.
4. I'm pretty lost on the proper technique. There're videos from people that seem to be knowledgeable (i.e. not your random YT fitness influencer / crossfit guru) but the variance in what they label as "proper technique" is huge. How much do you hinge/lean forward, where do your hands end at the end of the drive (at your pockets/hips ? just pull straight vertically, don't curl back ?) ... maybe it depends on what you use it for (e.g. just as a fitness machine or as a functional complement to actual skiing). Don't know.
5. I cannot reach the same level of power/pace I can do on the rower. Not by a mile (or two). Don't know if it's me (as in my technique sucks), or me (as in I'm all legs and that's OK on the RowErg but a tragedy on the SkiErg) or just me (as in I need more time to get better on the SkiErg).
6. Random questions:
   1. Gloves or not ?
   2. No shoes = bad ? Or it doesn't matter ?

Rower is mostly posterior based.
Skierg is mostly anterior based.

Skierg, think doing crunches.
Bend at the hips not really the waist.
Drive is started with the hips.
Slight bend in the knees
Keep arms at about a 90 degree bend until you've completed your "crunch"
Then there are several ways to finish the stroke- one like in the videos posted which are more like real cross country skiers and the other which is what most crossfitters use and what I typically use- which is to finish the stroke by trying to drive the handles straight into the floor. For me it produces the most power.
I'm within 0-12 secs or so of my erg pace depending on the distance.

Use whatever technique that works best for you. After all it's just exercise, you're not actually skiing or training to ski.

[mromero680]

I agree with the advice and I would add a focus on a solid hip hinge. Butt back and create force by dropping trunk. I also get better results with the longer arm motion. Same pace differential between rower and skierg, about 10 seconds slower per 500 on skierg.

[harrythehamster]

Rower is mostly posterior based.
Skierg is mostly anterior based.

Skierg, think doing crunches. Bend at the hips not really the waist. Drive is started with the hips.
Slight bend in the knees Keep arms at about a 90 degree bend until you've completed your "crunch" Then there are several ways to finish the stroke- one like in the videos posted which are more like real cross country skiers and the other which is what most crossfitters use and what I typically use- which is to finish the stroke by trying to drive the handles straight into the floor. For me it produces the most power.
I'm within 0-12 secs or so of my erg pace depending on the distance.

Use whatever technique that works best for you. After all it's just exercise, you're not actually skiing or training to ski.

Like this?
https://youtu.be/OQnXkIwXg_I?t=42

Who will be the first volunteer to try this on a marathon?

[HornetMaX]

Like this?
https://youtu.be/OQnXkIwXg_I?t=42

Who will be the first volunteer to try this on a marathon?

WTF ?! You mean I bought a SwimErg ?

BTW, that's a WR, no ?

[harrythehamster]

Seems to be well below current WR, but not listed as Concept2 WR. Maybe they don't want to recognize it or maybe that guy has not even asked for? Not sure what the rules actually say.

[HornetMaX]

Seems to be well below current WR, but not listed as Concept2 WR. Maybe they don't want to recognize it or maybe that guy has not even asked for? Not sure what the rules actually say.

He has to request it: https://www.concept2.com/skierg/motivat ... quirements

[harrythehamster]

I assume he must be aware of that requirement?

He seems to be pretty fast on rowerg too, especially on shorter distances
https://log.concept2.com/profile/1825797

[LeManchot]

I'm new to the skierg as well, but coming from a cross country skiing background. My first impressions are:

1. The skierg motion is not exactly like double pole skiing but close enough for training in the absence of roller skiing or on-snow availability.

2.The largest difference is in the handle position as you go through the stroke; in skiing (and roller skiing) the handle is attached to a super rigid carbon fiber pole that is planted on the ground (snow or pavement) and the handle cannot rotate around the wrist as it does on the skierg. This is the primary difference I have noticed between skierging and skiing. It significantly affects the way one positions the spine, abdominals, and lower body during the stroke as the pole is not present to support the body in the same way and the wrist is allowed to flex in directions not possible with a pole present. Some skiers utilize a tether around the waist that is attached to an opposing wall or other structure that holds up the spine and abdominal region so that a similar force profile to real skiing can be attained. It's not perfect but better.

3. So far (with about 50km of use), for me, the highest power comes from techniques that are not applicable to skiing. The modified technique that works for maximum power generation on the skierg includes stuff that we, as skiers, teach (and are taught) NOT to do, like continue the stroke past the hips and apply a large impulse force at the beginning of the stroke.

4. As a skier, use of this device with proper double pole ski technique will not produce power levels that would be competitive in the "skierg world". In addition, since weight is not considered (or adjusted for) in skierg races and records, and that cross country skiing inherently includes climbing (races are designed and proscribed by FIS to be one third uphill, one third downhill, and one third rolling) the athletes that would do well in skiing are not likely to do as well in skierg races and records. I don't see many (if any) champion skiers on the skierg record database (although I have not done an exhaustive search), but that may be because they are not typically utilizing the skierg for any workout where they would be going fast/hard since it may adversely affect their technique on snow.

5. Workouts on the skierg are great albeit a bit boring and could be a good base for aerobic development and for some specific strength and muscular endurance goals. We'll see.

6. As far as technique, I think the skierg community is bifurcated into "skierg"-types and skiers. The techniques, as discussed above are different. In the professional cross country ski world there are a couple of primary competitor groups : 1. World Cup (and World Cup wannabe) skiers doing 10-50 km races and 3km sprints using both classic (which includes primarily diagonal striding and double poling) and freestyle (aka "skating") sking and 2. Professional marathon skiers doing 50-90km classic races where the top competitors ONLY do double poling. If one is interested in improving their sking, then follow the techniques that these professionals utilize. If one wants to compete in the "skierg world" then utilize the techniques you see in those that are setting records. For skiing, a couple of videos displaying double pole techniques for World Cup and professional marathon skiers are below. Note: The marathon skiers do not lift their feet much or at all when compared to the shorter distance World Cup skiers. World Cup skiers doing sprints (as shown below) lift their feet much more than World Cup skiers in distance races. The focus of the "skierg world" appears to be on the sprint side so lifting ones feet is likely important in developing consistent power on the skierg. Both skier groups DO perform a "squat" on every double pole stroke as this is the basis for producing the highest power in the most economical fashion. My brief experience on the skierg indicates that performing a squat on every stroke is important for power development.

World Cup classic technique sprint:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leyxj71d81I

Marathon classic technique:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMqFRkcJnq4

[MudSweatAndYears]

Seems to be well below current WR, but not listed as Concept2 WR. Maybe they don't want to recognize it or maybe that guy has not even asked for? Not sure what the rules actually say.

I guess the SkiErg won’t auto-calibrate under this continuous mode of operation. My understanding is that the SkiErg is supposed to auto-calibrate (like a RowErg and unlike a BikeErg) during the recovery phase.

[HornetMaX]

I guess the SkiErg won’t auto-calibrate under this continuous mode of operation. My understanding is that the SkiErg is supposed to auto-calibrate (like a RowErg and unlike a BikeErg) during the recovery phase.

I'm not sure. Isn't the above style not too far from single-poling ?
To me the PM5 should work just fine (assuming it works fine for single-poling).

[gvcormac]

I guess the SkiErg won’t auto-calibrate under this continuous mode of operation. My understanding is that the SkiErg is supposed to auto-calibrate (like a RowErg and unlike a BikeErg) during the recovery phase.

I'm not sure. Isn't the above style not too far from single-poling ?
To me the PM5 should work just fine (assuming it works fine for single-poling).

I've forgotten the details, but when I first got my Ski Erg I managed to confuse the PM5 by "cow milking" it -- alternating poles with no recovery in between. I think it just gave an error message and gave up.

[HornetMaX]

I've forgotten the details, but when I first got my Ski Erg I managed to confuse the PM5 by "cow milking" it -- alternating poles with no recovery in between. I think it just gave an error message and gave up.

Cow-milking Way better than the boring official name.

But even on c2 site/videos you can see them talking/showcasing single-poling so it should work no ?

[gvcormac]

I've forgotten the details, but when I first got my Ski Erg I managed to confuse the PM5 by "cow milking" it -- alternating poles with no recovery in between. I think it just gave an error message and gave up.

Cow-milking Way better than the boring official name.

But even on c2 site/videos you can see them talking/showcasing single-poling so it should work no ?

I'll do some experiments. Maybe if you use the style they suggest, there is a small pause between strokes that is sufficient for the PM5 to catch its breath.

[gvcormac]

I've forgotten the details, but when I first got my Ski Erg I managed to confuse the PM5 by "cow milking" it -- alternating poles with no recovery in between. I think it just gave an error message and gave up.

Cow-milking Way better than the boring official name.

But even on c2 site/videos you can see them talking/showcasing single-poling so it should work no ?

I'll do some experiments. Maybe if you use the style they suggest, there is a small pause between strokes that is sufficient for the PM5 to catch its breath.

Experiment complete. After cow milking for about 30 seconds, the PM5 gives a full screen message: "Double pole to calibrate."

So presumably it switches to Bike Erg mode, where it assumes a fixed drag factor determined by prior calibration.

I'm not convinced you need to double pole. I just grabbed my camera (too late -- screen saver before I snapped it) but when I resumed milking, it didn't ask again. Presumably the coast-down when I paused milking was sufficient.

[mict450]

"Cow milking" You guys crack me up!!
I'm sure the cow would not be amused!

On a more serious note....for on-snow skiers: any reason for single pole training? Variety maybe?...