thoughts on this used C2 (and meaning of numbers)

[JaapvanE]

But since (many?) gyms apparently don't look after their equipment,
chances are they wouldn't lubricate the bushing either.

The machines in my gym have a max DF of 110, a low battery warning on the PM3 for months and a dry chain that squeeks when you touch it. And one has a skipping chain due to stiff links and the LCD is missing some lines. Complained to management about it months ago, still nothing.

Pretty good chances indeed.

[Slidewinder]

The bottom line is the Concept 2 one is much cheaper to make.

Its common to see this part totally missing on Gym rowers.

No doubt cost is an important factor.

The bottom part in your photo shows that the machine suffered from severe lack of maintenance.
I don't feel the manufacturer is to blame.

Yes, it was poor maintenance that allowed to machine to be used for so long without the bushing, but poor maintenance was not the cause of the bushing breaking. The bushing broke because it is insufficiently robust for its purpose.

[johnlvs2run]

I did more than 40 million meters, mostly on a model B, and don't recall ever replacing a bushing.
The bungee cord did wear out though, and wouldn't go back to the cage. The new one's resistance was brutal.

I could probably list mine on E-Bay and sell them internationally but nobody is going to pay for it and like I said before Joe Average doesn't even own a screwdriver. When I made these I totally overestimated the average persons ability to recognise a better part and be able to fit it.

How much would you sell them for?

[JaapvanE]

When I made these I totally overestimated the average persons ability to recognise a better part and be able to fit it.

For me, but I realize this is professional deformation, I'll follow C2 maintenance procedures and use their spare parts. If something fails too early, I know who to blame and request replacement under warranty.

[Slidewinder]

I'll follow C2 maintenance procedures and use their spare parts. If something fails too early, I know who to blame and request replacement under warranty.

Good idea. If you replace the bushing and it fails too soon, you can demand that Concept 2 replace it again or refund your dollar. No sleepless nights for you over that bushing. That's what I call peace of mind.

[Carl Watts]

I'll follow C2 maintenance procedures and use their spare parts. If something fails too early, I know who to blame and request replacement under warranty.

Good idea. If you replace the bushing and it fails too soon, you can demand that Concept 2 replace it again or refund your dollar. No sleepless nights for you over that bushing. That's what I call peace of mind.

Cannot be bothered myself, if I see something I can improve on then I design and build it.

Made untold stuff over a lifetime, needed a new wrist pin in a vintage model engine the other day so I just custom made one on the lathe.

Overall the Concept 2 rower is great, just a few relatively minor tweaks like changing fasteners that were not stainless, the flywheel bearing, the chain bush and the stainless monorail cap needed pulling and completely covering in double sides tape instead of two strips with a big gap down the middle. I also tossed all the flywheel weights in the bin and went to threaded caphead button screws with or without a washer depending on weight required. I should clarify, all the ones on the blades right by the steel. The Flywheel is dynamically balanced so the weights can be on the inside or the outside of the blades.

[Ombrax]

Overall the Concept 2 rower is great

Not if one were to believe Slidewinder's posts.

[Carl Watts]

Overall the Concept 2 rower is great

Not if one were to believe Slidewinder's posts.

Look overall and for the price I think they are very good. The IP in the monitor is exceptional.

Its like anything, you can make it better, however if that makes it 3 times the price, nobody would buy it.

I compare the C2 Erg to the typical home treadmill, which I have worked on and repaired the boards on and for a similar price they are total rubbish and you would NEVER put one of those in a Gym. So you want to buy a decent Gym treadmill for home use ? its like 5 times the cost of the Concept 2 Erg.

[JaapvanE]

Look overall and for the price I think they are very good. The IP in the monitor is exceptional.

As a person who has been building an Open Source alternative for the PM5 for a coupe of years, I am actually deeply impressed by C2's work. We use a Raspberry Pi 4 in its high performance mode (all 4 cores on maximum speed, some processes on a dedicated core, some subprocesses run on near-kernel priority, etc.), and still there are some tricks the PM5 can do we can't. With much simpler hardware. Drawing the force curve live on screen overloads our CPU, while the PM5 just does it without issue.

I compare the C2 Erg to the typical home treadmill, which I have worked on and repaired the boards on and for a similar price they are total rubbish and you would NEVER put one of those in a Gym. So you want to buy a decent Gym treadmill for home use ? its like 5 times the cost of the Concept 2 Erg.

Even when I compare the RowErg to current Gym machines, they are much more robust. In my small sample size of my local gym, I see A-Brand machines (treadmills, bikes, elliptical machines, etc.) recieving the same extreme low maintenance regime. Most machines are much younger than the Model D's (I guess the D's are way over over 18 years old, other around 10 years), but the other equipment's paint is cracked, they have rust forming on critical connection points, frequently used buttons on the monitor have worn out, etc.. Now the rowers could benefit from being less popular, but the rust and paint issues would still appear. So I would even state that their durability surpasses most professional gym machines.

[Slidewinder]

Overall the Concept 2 rower is great

Not if one were to believe Slidewinder's posts.

Correct. I refuse to abandon my critical faculties and join the endless and absurd song of praise and adulation for Concept 2. This upsets many here. I give kudos where kudos are due. Concept 2 has had two big ideas: Vaned flywheel resistance; and the self calibrating monitor. These were huge advances in rowing exercise technology. But that was back in the 80's, when C2 was still an innovative company. Decades have passed. What other great innovations has C2 introduced in the last thirty years? All of C2's patents have expired. The RowErg is just a Model B dressed up in a nice suit. That is a truth that no one wants to acknowledge.

[Slidewinder]

The IP in the monitor is exceptional.

By Intellectual Property you must mean trade secrets. My patent search finds no active patents related to the PM. In 1989, Concept 2 was granted a patent for, "Energy Absorbing means with Self-Calibrating Monitor" (US4875674A). The patent has expired.

[Sakly]

Slidewinder, please show your patents, please show your products sold worldwide in millions for the last 40 years.
If you cannot show up with it, please make up your business, as you know better than others which are in the business for this amount of time.
If all patents expired, you are free to build and sell the same item as far as I know. So hurry up, many people will buy your machine for the same price with much better quality.

[Slidewinder]

Slidewinder, please show your patents, please show your products sold worldwide in millions for the last 40 years.

So, your absurd argument is that no one is permitted to criticize any product unless they are a manufacturer with worldwide sales of a similar product and hold patents in the applicable technical field. My oh my.

[Sakly]

Slidewinder, please show your patents, please show your products sold worldwide in millions for the last 40 years.

So, your absurd argument is that no one is permitted to criticize any product unless they are a manufacturer with worldwide sales of a similar product and hold patents in the applicable technical field. My oh my.

It is no argument. I am not in a discussion which needs any arguments.
You only criticise a product. You make notes about how bad a product is and all users only ignore the issues and praise how awesome the product is.
If you know it all better, my only question is why you don't develop a similar machine which does not have all the flaws and sell it for the same price?
This would be much more helpful. And probably make you rich.

[Carl Watts]

The IP in the monitor is exceptional.

By Intellectual Property you must mean trade secrets. My patent search finds no active patents related to the PM. In 1989, Concept 2 was granted a patent for, "Energy Absorbing means with Self-Calibrating Monitor" (US4875674A). The patent has expired.

Like they say....No need to reinvent the wheel.

I have some pretty in depth knowledge of the monitors. The have come a long way from an electronics point of view and the accuracy and consistency has indeed evolved due to the speed of the micro. The PM1 was nothing more than a "Calculator" at the time using a single NEC micro with integrated LCD Driver. Now the monitor can do a more precise calculations rather than what I suspect was more "Look up tables" in the PM1 and PM2.

C2 probably no longer needs many of the patents anyway, nobody can copy what's in the monitor these days and C2 has just too big a head start in the market. By IP I really mean the actual monitor firmware.