Do I have any talent after 3 sessions?

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
andrew1987
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Do I have any talent after 3 sessions?

Post by andrew1987 » July 22nd, 2022, 11:16 am

I challenged myself to row 5000m, three times within a week :lol:
It does sound crazy since most people don't find indoor rowing of particular fun.
I'm not built like a rower nor will I ever be.
I'm 172 cm tall and weigh 64 kg. Based on my half efforts, could I ever break sub 20 min for 5000m with serious training despite being built like a 16 year old girl?
Session 1
https://ibb.co/85cYj81

Session 2
https://ibb.co/m5FJ35Z

Session 3
https://ibb.co/JFqLTQC

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hjs
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Re: Do I have any talent after 3 sessions?

Post by hjs » July 22nd, 2022, 12:28 pm

To give you some hope. There has been an Italian row who pulled a 6.02 at 69kg.
There are also a few lightweight who got below 6.00, max weight is 75 indoor and 72 in the boat.

You certainly can get below 20 min. Rowing is very much a trainingsport. “Blood” sweat and “tears.

If you like it, go for it. Read around here for more information.

Tony Cook
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Re: Do I have any talent after 3 sessions?

Post by Tony Cook » July 22nd, 2022, 1:18 pm

Hi Andrew.
You certainly learned something over those 3 sessions with consistency of pace and stroke rate. Just keep going now.
If you enjoy then it’s a good pastime, hobby, training regime, sport - whatever you want.
It’s also like golf, in that your first opponent is yourself. Keep training and getting better and beat your previous times, not every time - I’ve not beaten a previous time in about a year.
Good luck.
Born 1963 6' 5" 100Kg
PBs from 2020 - 100m 15.7s - 1min 355m - 500m 1:28.4 - 1k 3:10.6 - 2k 6:31.6 - 5k 17:34.9 - 6k 20:57.5 - 30min @ 20SPM 8,336m - 10k 36:28.0 - 1 hour 16,094m - HM 1:18:51.7
2021 - 5k 17:26 - FM 2:53:37.0

mitchel674
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Re: Do I have any talent after 3 sessions?

Post by mitchel674 » July 22nd, 2022, 2:04 pm

I'm impressed you were able to row three 5k sessions your first week on the rower. That's a talent from my perspective.

Take some time now as a beginner to focus on your technique. Rowing is a very technical sport. Good videos on the concept2 web site and elsewhere online. Look into this now so you will not have to unlearn bad habits later.
59yo male, 6ft, 153lbs

Joebasscat
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Re: Do I have any talent after 3 sessions?

Post by Joebasscat » July 22nd, 2022, 2:29 pm

andrew1987 wrote:
July 22nd, 2022, 11:16 am

It does sound crazy since most people don't find indoor rowing of particular fun.
Uh… you will find many here that disagree with this sentiment. :lol:

As to your question it is entirely possible, many lightweights have pulled that off. Congrats! Pretty good initial efforts. As others have said ensure your mechanics are solid and then settle in for some significant time in the seat. Pretty sure you will be able to hit that goal and many more.
65 5’-11” 72.5 kg

dabatey
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Re: Do I have any talent after 3 sessions?

Post by dabatey » July 22nd, 2022, 3:12 pm

Given your starting times I think you'll hit 20 minutes for 5000m very quickly.
Age 52....Weight 61 Kg....
Row 26 Aug 21 to Mar 22. Cycle Mar 22 to Jun 24. Now mixing the 2.
2K 8.02.3 (23 Oct 21)...7.37.0(15 Mar 22)
5K 22.14 (2 Oct 21)
Resting HR 45 (was 48 in 2021)....Max HR (Seen) 182 [185 cycling]

andrew1987
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Re: Do I have any talent after 3 sessions?

Post by andrew1987 » July 22nd, 2022, 3:29 pm

Thank you all for the encouraging comments. I'm a very determined person. I will definitely do some studying.
One thing I'm unsure of is which number on the foot plate I should pick. My shoe size is US 8.5 (EU 42).
Guidance around that would be great from veterans like yourselves.

Regarding the stroke rate. This is probably based on weight, height and type of workout, but what stroke range would be ideal for someone of my size?
When I rowed my second session a much bigger guy was next to me. He was pulling fast (34-36 strokes per minute) and looking crazy, but I was still faster than him. He must've been on a low damper setting? The machines at my gym aren't the best. They chain doesn't feel firm. I rowed at damper 5 today.

MPx
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Re: Do I have any talent after 3 sessions?

Post by MPx » July 22nd, 2022, 6:16 pm

andrew1987 wrote:
July 22nd, 2022, 3:29 pm

One thing I'm unsure of is which number on the foot plate I should pick.

Regarding the stroke rate.

I rowed at damper 5 today.
Most recommend that your ankle bone is level with the top of the rail and with your shoe size this is likely to be in number 2 (with 4 holes showing above) but like most things on the erg its not a hard and fast rule for everyone so find a level that's comfortable for you.

Stroke rate will vary depending what you are doing. Just training rows likely to be best in the 18-24 range. Time trials and hard sessions 28-34. Ultra sprints maybe 40 to 60 or even higher.

Damper position tells you very little as the "resistance" you feel depends on how clean and well maintained the erg is. In many gyms they are woeful. Instead look for Drag Factor on the PM5 menus. You'll need to pull a few strokes to get a number displayed - on a new machine it may be between 90 on 1 and 220 on 10. A very dirty machine may only get 70 to 90. Most people find a DF sweet spot in the 110 - 140 range, but there are many outliers who prefer lower or higher. Most gym users think 10 is the right answer - its not usually, but of course maybe if 10 on that specific machine means a DF in the 110 - 140 range!
Mike - 67 HWT 183

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sailortodd
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Re: Do I have any talent after 3 sessions?

Post by sailortodd » July 22nd, 2022, 6:27 pm

MPx wrote:
July 22nd, 2022, 6:16 pm
Ultra sprints maybe 40 to 60 or even higher.
I'm kind of curious, because I've seen the 40+ stroke rate referenced before, but I struggle to get a stroke rate above 30 spm without form going completely out the window so I can't even imagine it, how does one achieve a stroke rate in the 40s+?

btlifter
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Re: Do I have any talent after 3 sessions?

Post by btlifter » July 22nd, 2022, 7:07 pm

sailortodd wrote:
July 22nd, 2022, 6:27 pm
MPx wrote:
July 22nd, 2022, 6:16 pm
Ultra sprints maybe 40 to 60 or even higher.
I'm kind of curious, because I've seen the 40+ stroke rate referenced before, but I struggle to get a stroke rate above 30 spm without form going completely out the window so I can't even imagine it, how does one achieve a stroke rate in the 40s+?
These high stroke rates are not performed with a "full stroke". We sprinters will significantly reduce our stroke length - mostly via less knee bend - to achieve high rates. Usually around 40s/m for a 1 minutes or 500m piece. Bit higher for a 100m, bit lower for a 1k.
chop stuff and carry stuff

Dangerscouse
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Re: Do I have any talent after 3 sessions?

Post by Dangerscouse » July 23rd, 2022, 2:28 am

andrew1987 wrote:
July 22nd, 2022, 3:29 pm
When I rowed my second session a much bigger guy was next to me. He was pulling fast (34-36 strokes per minute) and looking crazy, but I was still faster than him. He must've been on a low damper setting? The machines at my gym aren't the best. They chain doesn't feel firm. I rowed at damper 5 today.
It's a common mistake that people assume the faster you look, the faster you're moving, but it's all about efficiency, and quality, of each stroke.

Rowing at r34 (a term for strokes per minute) can be strong or weak, so it's entirely possible to potentially row at 1:20 or 3:20 but still look like you're rowing really fast at 3:20.

With a bad technique, but a fast movement, he will be leaking power and not directing it into the flywheel and therefore generating power. For a seemingly simple exercise, it is surprisingly technical, so never underestimate the big importance of little things.
51 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:19; 6k= 20:47; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,488m 60mins= 16,618m HM= 1:16.47; FM= 2:40:41; 50k= 3:16:09; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

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JaapvanE
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Re: Do I have any talent after 3 sessions?

Post by JaapvanE » July 23rd, 2022, 2:51 am

MPx wrote:
July 22nd, 2022, 6:16 pm
Damper position tells you very little as the "resistance" you feel depends on how clean and well maintained the erg is. In many gyms they are woeful. Instead look for Drag Factor on the PM5 menus. You'll need to pull a few strokes to get a number displayed - on a new machine it may be between 90 on 1 and 220 on 10. A very dirty machine may only get 70 to 90. Most people find a DF sweet spot in the 110 - 140 range, but there are many outliers who prefer lower or higher. Most gym users think 10 is the right answer - its not usually, but of course maybe if 10 on that specific machine means a DF in the 110 - 140 range!
Good points about the ranges of DF but I wanted to add two things. First, a small correction, on a brand new RowErg, DF can vary between 70 and 225. At least, that is what my machine does.

Second, as it can't be repeated enough: think of DF as a bicycle gear. A higher DF means that the stroke becomes heavier, but you will produce more work per stroke. Similar to a bicycle gear: a higher gear will make your rotation harder, but will increase your speed. At what gear you are the most effective is a typical personal preference.

JaapvanE
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Re: Do I have any talent after 3 sessions?

Post by JaapvanE » July 23rd, 2022, 3:18 am

andrew1987 wrote:
July 22nd, 2022, 3:29 pm
Regarding the stroke rate. This is probably based on weight, height and type of workout, but what stroke range would be ideal for someone of my size?
When I rowed my second session a much bigger guy was next to me. He was pulling fast (34-36 strokes per minute) and looking crazy, but I was still faster than him. He must've been on a low damper setting? The machines at my gym aren't the best. They chain doesn't feel firm. I rowed at damper 5 today.
I have an old man in my gym who used to row on the water, and he still rows at a very easy pace at rate 20 without breaking a sweat, but easily rows a 2K under 8 minutes that way. That leaves most brute force sweating gym users behind. It is a game of effectiveness, which can easily be won against people who just use brute force without regard for technique.

The stroke rate also is a personal preference. When thinking about stroke rate, think of the flywheel as a kid on a swing you are pushing. When your timing is off you either pushing against the motion or you are pushing against a swing that is already gone. Effectiveness happens when you time your push/drive just right.

Stroke rate actually is determined by the combination of you and the dragfactor you use. Ideally, you have a natural (not hasted) recovery, just to return in time for the flywheel to have slowed down enough to pick it up again easily (the catch). You feel a good flow and not much energy is wasted.

When your recovery is too fast for your DF, the flywheel is still spinning too fast and you will lose a powerfull part of the stroke to catching up with the flywheel (you are running behind the swing that is gone). When you are too late, the flywheel will have slowed down too much and the catch will be easy to feel but hard on your body. So getting into that zone where you can easily catch that spinning flywheel again is usefull.

Another point on that motion and why a rushed drive is less effective: the flywheel gets much more resistance when it moves faster (look for "cube law"), just like a boat. So, maintaining a more steady flywheel speed instead of a very fluctuating one throughout a stroke, is beneficial. It simply is more effective. Most brute force people have a huge explosive (rushed) drive and try to get the flywheel spinning as fast as possible. It will peak quickly, and decay in speed faster as well. So looking at your force curve during a row, and getting as much area underneath as possible (the best ones look like haystacks) will make you the most effective.

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hjs
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Re: Do I have any talent after 3 sessions?

Post by hjs » July 23rd, 2022, 3:28 am

sailortodd wrote:
July 22nd, 2022, 6:27 pm
MPx wrote:
July 22nd, 2022, 6:16 pm
Ultra sprints maybe 40 to 60 or even higher.
I'm kind of curious, because I've seen the 40+ stroke rate referenced before, but I struggle to get a stroke rate above 30 spm without form going completely out the window so I can't even imagine it, how does one achieve a stroke rate in the 40s+?
To rate very high, while using a good stroke, you need to be very fit.

High 30 ies is common for elite 2k rowers. Above 40 is, over longer distances, not doable. Simply not enough time to make usefull strokes that way.

Example of rowing fast, rating high. Lightweight rower Stefansen, who was bizarly fit. Look at him after the finish ;-)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HjH3inybxSQ

Tony Cook
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Re: Do I have any talent after 3 sessions?

Post by Tony Cook » July 23rd, 2022, 4:06 am

sailortodd wrote:
July 22nd, 2022, 6:27 pm
MPx wrote:
July 22nd, 2022, 6:16 pm
Ultra sprints maybe 40 to 60 or even higher.
I'm kind of curious, because I've seen the 40+ stroke rate referenced before, but I struggle to get a stroke rate above 30 spm without form going completely out the window so I can't even imagine it, how does one achieve a stroke rate in the 40s+?
Like this https://youtu.be/_Y6YaPpYzs0
🤣
Born 1963 6' 5" 100Kg
PBs from 2020 - 100m 15.7s - 1min 355m - 500m 1:28.4 - 1k 3:10.6 - 2k 6:31.6 - 5k 17:34.9 - 6k 20:57.5 - 30min @ 20SPM 8,336m - 10k 36:28.0 - 1 hour 16,094m - HM 1:18:51.7
2021 - 5k 17:26 - FM 2:53:37.0

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