How Do You Overcome Height Disadvantages?

[[old] ljwagner]

Fighting the oar in my ribs, with feet in shoes, I did not lean out of the way. I got stretched, until the hip flexor gave a bit too much. Lots of running provided very healthy hip flexors. For some time afterwards I tended to not kick up my foot high enough, putting more weight on the leg swing forward. Now, that is a signal to kick up my foot more, and the strain goes away,and re-injury avoided.<br /><br />Encouraged to always do "just one more lap" running, it was re-injured about 3-4 times. That might have been a month lost right there. I did not have the trainer's manual I bought in 1977.<br /><br />During any part of the drive, if the hips are moving to the bow, and the shoulders are moving slower, or not at all, one is "Shooting the Slide". <br /><br />The whole torso angle shift is rapid. The only thing quicker is blade entry, and it happens together. Work on it by pairs in an 8. Offer $40 to the first pair that can make it work. You'll know it when you see it and feel it. Accelerate to the catch, shoulders rising and the slight back tip and catch coming very quickly together the last quarter of the slide. There is no pause near the catch. Don't blink. All that motion is very fast. You can't waste the accelaration of the slide, hands up, oars in the water, body angle locked \, and the drive powers the boat. Brief pause after oars out, breathe. Next stroke. The boat will accelerate a little every stroke. Don't worry about run out, the boat is slowing down.<br /><br />There are not many choices. Slide too slow, the boat will decelerate anyway. Friction and gravity. Seems like a lot of worry over a very little "possible" stern check, vs a quicker entry to the water and easier acceleration. You work on it, until it is right. Its a Eureka thing. Maybe my hyperness made it easier. Someone fast, a bit jumpy will enjoy it more. But now I run slow, but still row this way.<br />

[[old] John Rupp]

ljwagner,<br /><br />I like your ideas.<br /><br />They make perfect sense to me.

[[old] Jim Barry]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Fighting the oar in my ribs, with feet in shoes, I did not lean out of the way. I got stretched, until the hip flexor gave a bit too much. Lots of running provided very healthy hip flexors. For some time afterwards I tended to not kick up my foot high enough, putting more weight on the leg swing forward. Now, that is a signal to kick up my foot more, and the strain goes away,and re-injury avoided. </td></tr></table><br /><br /> I can not begin to makes sense of this "paragraph". Is this just me? What are we even talking about?

[[old] Byron Drachman]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Is this just me?<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Hi Jim,<br /><br />No, I'm also having some trouble deciphering LJ's postings, but I find them interesting. It sounds like he caught a classical crab and banged the oar into his ribs. <br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Accelerate to the catch, shoulders rising and the slight back tip and catch coming very quickly together the last quarter of the slide. </td></tr></table> <br /><br />OK, now I think I know what his stroke is. At the last 1/4 of the recovery he "shoots the slide" to get the lean back. Others might say this can cause undue stress on the hip flexors as well as shorten the stroke. Just for the fun of it, I think I'll try it next time I'm on the water, but I'm not optimistic that my speed will increase. For one thing, I don't have a lot of muscle mass to give a big burst of power, and I seem to do better with a longer, smoother stroke applying the lesser power over a longer stroke. Still, it's fun to read postings that are somewhat unconventional. LJ, thanks for your interesting idea.<br /><br />Byron<br /><br /><br />

[[old] ljwagner]

Crab at the finish, so my hands were in front of my chest already. <br /><br />This was in my third year rowing. My being a victim of flaw in the technique can not be blamed. If it was that, injuries as a result a "dangerous technique" should have been widespread and frequent. They were not.<br /><br />We ran flat, bleachers, and hills. I did legs swings. My hip flexors were in great shape. I had gained 8 lbs in the weight room that year. Prior years, on a bad crab, I'd ducked the oar successfully, then got back in sequence. At a race pace interval, it just caught me by surprise.<br /><br />----------------<br />If I have pressure on the handle, and hips and shoulders move together from the full slide position, where is the shooting of the slide ? I have some bend left in the arms, for another 2 inches of extenson or so while I tip to my "\" position. But I'm at that angle, arms fully extended, at the stern stops. That is when I pull, and I have flywheel resistance. <br /><br /> I have the original model C2, so its quite noisy. If I shot my slide, it'd be pretty obvious. I'd hear little or no wheel acceleration as I move my hips. Speed would drop, not maintain or increase. I'd see my hips moving out from under my shoulders. I have a full mirror opposite me, and a light above and to one side, so my shadow would also reveal it. I don't shoot my slide. I'm 100% conscious of hips and shoulders moving together. Be it fast or slow, I always "lock" them together as if they can't do it any other way. For one, I'd then be doing a back lift that is dangerous, and could not have a good score since I would not be using my legs. I don't have an exceptionally powerful low back, but neither have I ever injured it on the C2. I do get good scores. Going maximum resistance is the easiest way to judge shooting the slide since the hips would still do nothing, and the back would have a heavier load and move upwards slower, or not at all. <br /><br />Alternately, when you do squats, do you ever leave your shoulders down, and lift your hips ? No. But if you did, that would be the equivalent to shooting the slide. Weight not moved. Well, squating, my shoulders move with my hips as they should. Rowing, on the drive, the same. <br /><br /> In my current condition, the max 500m split time I can produce is 1:38. Would you suspect a slim guy with a mild heart condition could do that shooting the slide ? I can't hold that, but warmed up, I can accelerate up to it. A few years ago, I could hit a max split time of 1:28. I'm curious if anyone can do that shooting their slide. I for one would be surprised.<br /><br />

[[old] ljwagner]

The theory behind this technique I still use is that you use each muscle group in sequence more strongly, that opening the back while driving the legs pits them against each other, resulting in some loss of power. It might be a lot, but a 5% loss is still a 5% loss. 2% loss is too much if it can be avoided. If the loss is 10%, that is really something to avoid. In a competitive sport, any avoidable loss should be avoided. <br /><br />The concept is that greater leg power is possible from full slide, with back at the position it achieves half way down the slide normally, and sitting taller with a NATURAL back arch, is greater than that achieved with the technique as shown in the C2 demo on the website.<br /><br />Let me see, you're are advising me to hunch over some, and involve my back more at full bend. Its doable. Rowers can and obviously do train and don't get hurt doing this. <br /><br />Medically speaking, what I do is safer. The spinal erectors and low back can handle a higher load, and the lungs can get more air as well. In fact from the slide forward, relaxed as in the C2 demo, to the drive point, when the the chest is opening and one achieves that SLIGHT lean to stern, it automatically causes the lungs to fill further. More air, stronger safer position, no muscle groups working against each other. <br /><br /> The stern check issue is a legitimate one, but done right, I believe it is avoided. Perhaps the purpose of the accelerated slide is to negate a mild stern check. If the boat gets a little speed bump forward, it can afford a slight bump back.

[[old] Byron Drachman]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If I have pressure on the handle, and hips and shoulders move together from the full slide position, where is the shooting of the slide ? </td></tr></table> <br /><br />Right. I agree there is no shooting of the slide during the drive as you described. If I got your idea right, you do speed up the hips or slow down your shoulders as you're rolling into the catch so you have some backward lean at the beginning of the drive. I tried that on my C2 this morning. It didn't help me go faster, but I gather it does for you.<br /><br />I wish I could do a 1:38<br /><br />Byron

[[old] ljwagner]

<!--QuoteBegin-Byron Drachman+Nov 24 2005, 09:38 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Byron Drachman @ Nov 24 2005, 09:38 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If I have pressure on the handle, and hips and shoulders move together from the full slide position, where is the shooting of the slide ? </td></tr></table><br /><br />Right. I agree there is no shooting of the slide during the drive as you described. If I got your idea right, you do speed up the hips or slow down your shoulders as you're rolling into the catch so you have some backward lean at the beginning of the drive. I tried that on my C2 this morning. It didn't help me go faster, but I gather it does for you.<br /><br />I wish I could do a 1:38<br /><br />Byron <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />You are making think an awful lot about something I have done for 33 years, and only thought about it when teaching it (!!!!!) to family . <br /><br /> When learning it, I suspect we were told something similar to rotating the torso about an imaginary line through the waist or some nearby point, not down at the hips, or at the seat level. That way, yes, shoulders and hips are briefly moving in opposite directions, but not with the oar in the water. At the moment full slide is reached, the blade just enters the water, the back is aligned, and one can drive as hard as you are able. Since some mass moved sternward, and some forward there is no stern check in getting the back in position. Acceleration from the slide is reduced, but stern check does not occur.

[[old] Jim Barry]

I tried the "Wagner" technique today (what the h***) on a hard 5k erg and I liked it. It is a strong position for me. I could keep the rate low (24-26) and felt I had plenty in reserve were I to crank the rate to 28-30. Considering I've never rowed like this it was impressive. Really odd though. <br /><br />

[[old] Jim Barry]

Here's a clip of my attempt at rowing as described. In review here I do not think I have it correct (feeling that its not all leg drive initially), but FWIW, this is what I was doing today for grins. I do like a little layback when on the legdrive and in my test today (5k at 1:56, 26spm), it does not appear to cost that much in terms of offsetting negatives. HR was the same as my regular technique rowed on Tuesday (5k, 1:56, 27spm). This clip is 23spm and 2:05 (comfortable rowing). <br /><br /><br /><a href='http://media.putfile.com/Layback-at-Catchj' target='_blank'>Video- Click Here</a><br /><br />

[[old] John Rupp]

Jim,<br /><br />Based on my understanding of the explanation, I would say that is most definitely not it, as you are opening up with your back before driving with your legs.<br /><br />Rather as outlined before it is like this:<br /> \ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . /<br />catch - leg drive - finish<br /><br />or<br /> \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ | /<br />catch - leg drive - finish<br /><br />As opposed to:<br />C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . /<br />catch - leg drive - finish<br />(the C to be reversed and curved forward)<br /><br />However if you keep your back in the same upright (slight forward lean) position to the end of the slide, while driving with your legs, you will have it.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-ljwagner+Nov 23 2005, 11:53 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ljwagner @ Nov 23 2005, 11:53 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Here is the body angle on 1) recovery, 2) power application, 3) attached links of most folks rowing today.<br />                    body<br />                  angle<br />1.    Bow        /          Stern  (on recovery)<br />2.    Bow        \          Stern  (on power application)<br />3.    Bow        C        Stern  (never catch me doing it)<br /><br /> The angle of the keyboard slashes is pretty close.  <br /><br /> In the links (3), the back would have the Spinal erectors stretched maximally.  No one out of shape could do that without doing their backs serious damage.  An out of shape person can row this (1,2) technique with out hurting their back.  Its always in a strong position.<br /><br />  When and how do you change body angle ?  Well, at the very tail end of the slide, you pivot in the hips,and shoulders. At the moment you are at max slide, you should be at 2, and drive the legs down.  It may be your hands get to full reach position, and the body angle changes right up to the catch, so you don't over extend.  Its easier with a pause at the finish, and a SLIGHTLY accelerated slide to the drive position. </td></tr></table><br /><br />The C represents the common majorly forward curved profile which has the back in a weak and dangerous position.<br /><br />Having some experience with Olympic weightlifting in my 20's, I always keep my back in the position as outlined by ljwagner, as to do otherwise would be not only weak but also quite dangerous.<br />

[[old] Jim Barry]

Here's How I read it: <br /><br />From lwagner:<br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->At the moment you are at max slide, you should be at 2, and drive the legs down. </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />And position 2 has layback (body leaning into the bow or in the case of the erg , lean away from the fancage (slightly). See below. That's the crazy part. I tried it and its not so crazy at all. Reminds me of a jacked erg in a way. <br /><br /><br />From lwagner<br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2.    Bow        \          Stern  (on power application) </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br />

[[old] Rogus]

Deleted

[[old] Byron Drachman]

Hi Jim,<br /><br />I watched the video. I think I was doing something similar when I tried the "Wagner" method. As I said, it didn't seem to change my split time for the same perceived effort, but it's hard to judge. For one thing, if I change the stroke I'm not sure if I'm changing the effort. It didn't seem to hurt my split time either. If nothing else, it's an interesting experiment. <br /><br />Hi LJ,<br /><br />You said earlier that this method has fallen out of favor. Did many coaches have their rowers do it this way at one time, or was this just where you were? This is the first time I've heard of it, but I'm not an expert on rowing or its history. <br /><br />Hi John,<br /><br />Have you tried it? Can you improve any of your times with this method?<br /><br />Byron