Heavy 10's

[old] matej · Post by **[old] matej** » June 8th, 2004, 9:26 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (jjpisano @ Jun 8 2004, 03:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> I wonder if the lack of speed work and the great difference in drag factor will be trouble. Time will tell.  </td></tr></table> Jim, IMO you should make some speed work and intervals before atempting 500m, for me it's kind of long sprint @ 32-34 spm, and you should be prepared to exhaust. Do you usually take 4-day training brake?? Hope it'll help...

[old] jjpisano · Post by **[old] jjpisano** » June 8th, 2004, 10:01 am

I'm trying to let my intercostal muscles heal a little. I don't think my muscle mass wil deteriorate over that time. Supposedly, 500m times are most closely related to muscle mass. I might paddle a little over the next few days to get used to 150 drag factor again. I don't think I'll do much hard pulls until my warmup right before the 500m personal best attempt. Jim Pisano

[old] Carl Henrik · Post by **[old] Carl Henrik** » June 8th, 2004, 3:30 pm

I don't think muscle mass is the most important thing for a 500m. Then there would be little efficiency in training with an erg. When I was 81kg a couple of years ago and "never" erged I tried a 500m sprint on my gym. Other strenghs that I had at that time was 170kg deadlift 60 kg biceps curl with straight bar 115 kg seated rowing machine Today I am lighter and weaker in the gym. I way 75-77 kg and max around 150 kg in the deadlift. 500m erg at that point: 1:36 500m today : 1:26 Why am I faster now? I think: Better general and local aerobic ability, and a better local neuromuscular adaption to the specific movement.

[old] jjpisano · Post by **[old] jjpisano** » June 9th, 2004, 9:19 am

Carl: You have a valid point; however, Dr. Stephen Seilor has a nice article regarding elite rowers erg performances on the Rowers World web site where he compares the erg performances of the the US National team members including both heavy and lightweight, and men and women team members. He concludes that 500m erg performance is directly related to muscle mass. Perhaps, that idea can be qualified to: Other things being equal (ceteris paribus - as they in Economics and in Latin), 500m erg performance is directly related to muscle mass. In your example of a series of 1 person (yourself), there was a difference in your levels of experience as a novice and as you are now. The other things are not equal in your example. You rightly point out that there are confounding variables one of which includes neuromuscular training. I would bet if there were two rowers doing a 500 m personable best attempt, one of which weighed 165 pounds and had 10% body fat and the other of which weighed 225 and had 10% body fat, ceteris paribus (including levels of experience), the one who weighed 225 pounds would win. Jim Pisano 38 yo, 5'8", slightly overweight lightweight at the present moment , pb 500m 1:32.7

[old] Carl Henrik · Post by **[old] Carl Henrik** » June 9th, 2004, 9:55 am

I have read that article and I also believe that muscle mass is directly related to 500m erg performance. But, what I wanted to point at is that there are other variables wich potentially have just as large an impact on 500m erg score as muscle mass, depending on starting conditions and time for training the chosen variable.

[old] jjpisano · Post by **[old] jjpisano** » June 9th, 2004, 10:59 am

Good point, Carl. For instance, I haven't done any speed work at all. Only power work and all that at a drag factor of around 230. In addition, all my work has been at 12 spm. Now on Saturday, I'm going to set the drag factor at 150, pull at around 38 spm and go for a 500m personal best. Perhaps, I'm setting myself up for failure. My catch speed has got to be slow, I would think, because I've trained a slow, hard drive at a 230 drag factor. I'm not even at my peak power at present because of pulled intercostal muscles. The only thing I've got going for me is a mass of additional muscle specifically trained to the rowing stroke. Parenthetically, my last and only 500 m personal best attempt last year occurred at the end of 3 months of mostly long slow distance with 1 workout per week of heavy 10's. I actually hadn't done speed work before that. Perhaps, my 500m personal best would have been even better if I had tried it around my 2k peak training period which included lots of 500m intervals. I really don't like doing personal best attempts too often. They hurt too much. Jim Pisano

[old] jjpisano · Post by **[old] jjpisano** » June 12th, 2004, 8:07 am

Fellow forumites: I did it! 500m pb @ 1:29.7. More details on the personal best posts when my heart rate comes down and I can think more clearly. Jim Pisano

[old] otherside · Post by **[old] otherside** » June 12th, 2004, 8:17 am

Congratulations, Jim! That's 3 seconds off?? And you'll go even faster with specific speed training... Simon.

[old] Carl Henrik · Post by **[old] Carl Henrik** » June 12th, 2004, 9:16 am

Congrats Jim! Looks like whatever you have lost in aerobic capacity has more than been made up for by the mass and hard pull specific training. It would be interesting to see what training other parameters will do for you.

[old] Bayko · Post by **[old] Bayko** » June 12th, 2004, 11:29 am

Congratulations Jim. As a lightweight myself, I've followed your experiment with great interest. It will be interesting to see if this can now help bring down your 2k time as well when the time is right. Go man, go! Rick

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » June 13th, 2004, 4:04 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (jjpisano @ Jun 3 2004, 06:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> My goal was to increase my lean body mass by 13 lbs over that time solely by using the Concept2 in a strength training manner, to go from 146 to 159 lbs. of lean body mass.  </td></tr></table> Hi Jim, I cant see anywhere in this thread why you chose to attempt this solely using a C2 and not what I would consider a better method of a 'weights' circuit programme, balanced with an erging component to maintain erging fitness. I would think there is inherant dangers in low low low spm to techinique.

[old] jjpisano · Post by **[old] jjpisano** » June 14th, 2004, 6:37 am

GeorgeD: In the old forum, I had a series of posts which were placed in the forum at the beginning of the month. My first post had a list of reasons for this strength training regimen. I agree that Heavy 10's is inherently dangerous. But so is weight lifting. I was not after the aerobic conditioning effect of circuit training with weights. I was after the pure power effect of Heavy weight lifting. I designed a workout regimen which was like weight lifting but was in fact on the erg. In fact, I believe it is better than heavy weight lifting because the movements are very specific to the rowing stroke (after all, the movements are the rowing stroke). Even heavy weight lifting routines involving the muscles most involved in the rowing stroke would not be quite as specific as actually doing a rowing stroke in power training. Of course, I realized the inherent danger of Heavy 10's. So I always warmed up nicely for each workout and I eased into the routine over time. My very first workout only involved 9 intervals of 8 strokes each. In the old forum, I detailed that I was injured doing my only heavy weight session of the period between February 15th and now. Probably for me, with 2 seasons of erg training under my belt, strength training on the rowing machine was probably safer than heavy weight training. I believe my very first post in the old forum, regarding this subject went something like this: Generally the more muscle mass a rower has, the harder that rower can pull. Generally, heavyweights can outpull lightweights, heavy lightweights can outpull light lightweights and men (who generally have more muscle mass) can outpull women. So to optimize my speed, I should increase my muscle mass. At the beginning of this period, I was estimated to have 146 pounds of lean body mass. One of the great lightweights (i.e. Ranger) has stated that he has 159 pounds of lean body mass. I thought it would be a worthy goal to match Ranger, at least in lean body mass. I would have to gain 13 pounds of lean body mass. The best way to gain lean body mass is Heavy weight training. So after reviewing Heavy 10's as stated By Dr. Stephen Seiler on the Rower's World web site, I went to the body building literature and converted some weight lifting ideas for use on the rowing machine. Jim Pisano

[old] donm79 · Post by **[old] donm79** » June 14th, 2004, 9:12 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (jjpisano @ Jun 14 2004, 05:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> One of the great lightweights (i.e. Ranger) has stated that he has 159 pounds of lean body mass. I thought it would be a worthy goal to match Ranger, at least in lean body mass. I would have to gain 13 pounds of lean body mass.  </td></tr></table> Ranger has 159lbs of lean body mass at 165lbs bodyweight? That would indicate a body fat % of 3.6. That sounds pretty unlikely considering that essential bodyfat for males is usually around 3%. Any lower and you risk organ damage and problems with the endocrine system.

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » June 14th, 2004, 10:36 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (donm79 @ Jun 14 2004, 08:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (jjpisano @ Jun 14 2004, 05:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> One of the great lightweights (i.e. Ranger) has stated that he has 159 pounds of lean body mass. I thought it would be a worthy goal to match Ranger, at least in lean body mass. I would have to gain 13 pounds of lean body mass.  </td></tr></table> Ranger has 159lbs of lean body mass at 165lbs bodyweight? That would indicate a body fat % of 3.6. That sounds pretty unlikely considering that essential bodyfat for males is usually around 3%. Any lower and you risk organ damage and problems with the endocrine system. </td></tr></table> I am not sure about the percentage body weight calculation. All heavy lightweights have to do various shenanigans to make weight at a race venue. Many don't eat much the the day before (and then, for energy, eat quite a bit in the two hours between the weigh and the race). Many sweat off a few pounds just before they weigh in (and then drink those pounds back on just before they race). Many work so hard in the weeks just before a race that they reduce their weight to a somewhat artificial (but only temporary) level; then they work more easily after the race and let their weight float back up to more normal levels. And many do most of their training, especially in the off season, as much as 10-15 lbs. above the limit of 165 lbs. so that their body fat is at a completely comfortable level for most of the year. I would guess that most heavy lightweights are more like 175 lbs. most of the time. Therefore, if they have 160 lbs. or so of lean body mass, they have more like 9% body fat, not 3.6%. ranger

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » June 14th, 2004, 3:10 pm

Jim, Having done the 12 spm before, I found better results by going the same time at regular rates, instead of at 12 spm. In other words, doing your 9x 40 or 44 seconds at your 500 meter pace, and replacing all of the 12 spm sessions this way. I think your results would be better. It's amazing you still broke 1:30 with no specific training. You must have a lot of potential to go faster than you did.

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