Ranger - News To Shock

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->n your case you feel your potential is a 6:16 for the 2k. </td></tr></table><br /><br />With my old stroke, my potential for the 2K, I think, was 6:28. I realized that potential completely and was delighted with the result.<br /><br />With my new stroke, my potential for the 2K, I think, is 6:16. <br /><br />It took three years to do it, but I have augmented my potential by improving my technical efficiency and stroking power.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Since you have never followed the WP, how do you know that it could not bring you to "some new level" ? </td></tr></table><br /><br />It is not bringing Mike to a new level, and being the 40s lwt world record holder, he is a close parallel to me, not to mention the originator of the plan.<br /><br />Mike used the plan to set the 40s lwt WR. Since that time, his 2K performances have steadily declined, about 8 seconds in all. <br /><br />Mike is in his middle 40s. 50s rowers usually decline even more quickly, as much as 2-3 seconds a year. If the WP does nothing to slow down this normal decline and I had followed it over the last three years, with results similar to Mike's, I should now be rowing 6:36 or so. <br /><br />Over the next year or so, as I start racing consistently again, we'll see how my training has done relative to that. The comparison will be interesting.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Questions for you Ranger: What are the physiological changes that your training method induces that should be labeled as an "augmentation" instead of a "realization" of potential ? </td></tr></table><br /><br />Sure, this is a somewhat false dichotomy theoretically. Of course, anything you do you had the potential to do. There is no way to really augment your potential. I suppose the distinction I am making is between the major training plans for rowing, which are usually devised to take a group of rowers through a season of rowing with a focus on a successful performance at the end of the season, and a plan that does not have these limitations, that perhaps is more individualized, more long-term, and more absolute, an attempt to get the best performance, whenever it might come and whatever it might be. As I have pursued this, I think the focus of most plans to augment potential will drop everything and try to overcome some major weakness or group of weaknesses that, if unattended, would just remain in place if the rower followed one or another of the other training plans in the normal way.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] hjs]

Yes, this is the proper response, H20. The time has not at all been wasted. All I have to do is get through proper race preparation, which I am entirely capable of and know how to do. This first race could be a total screw-up, because time is short, but not WIRC. I'll be prepared by then. I am still figuring some things out about how to race with the stroke, but my new stroke is just fine and just needs to be adapted to racing--at all distances. <br /><br />The crisis I have just gone through with drag was short-lived. No way I am going to row at 188 df. or even 155 df. No way I am going to give up my new stroke, row on my toes in a 1-to-2 measure at high drag, and all that other ridiculous b.s. I have been spouting for the last few days. <br /><br />The crisis was entirely understandable, however, given that is the way I have always raced (high drag, etc.), and given that I do it very well, now even holding onto my fast legs and better technique. At high drag, rowing with my new stroke (full slide, proper timing, fast legs, etc.), I go like a mad bastard (1:28 @ 36 spm!). But it would be _ridiculous_ for me to row a 2K with that kind of stroking power. Totally, totally ridiculous. <br /><br />For racing, I have found that a little more drag than 105 df. might indeed be better, though, as Dwayne found, just about 120 df., setting 4. <br /><br />So I am back at race preparation/sharpening in a respectable manner again, although the detour has cost me some precious time. <br /><br />The stroke feels great. Don't know why I ever though of trashing it, after all the effort I put into building it. I glide along in perfect form, 1:54 @ 17 spm, 14 SPI, with _very_ little effort. I could indeed do a marathon now at this rate and pace, if I trained for it. What 55-year-old lwt could ask for more out of technique and stroking power? <br /><br />Patience. Patience. Got to take it slow. <br /><br />Sorry that I bathed the forum is my hysteria! <br /><br />Oh well. The mind is a unruly s.o.b.! <br /><br />ranger <br /><br /><br />boy o boy, It seems you really don't know what you want/need. You keep on changing. Back to low drag again. Offcause you never should have tried the high drag. <br /><br />What will be your next hattrick?

[[old] mpukita]

<!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jan 11 2006, 01:19 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 11 2006, 01:19 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Jan 11 2006, 12:47 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Jan 11 2006, 12:47 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->BTW, given the enormous increase in stroking power that you can get by just learning to row with correct timing, sequencing, leverage, rhythmicity, etc. (2-4 SPI?) vs. not, I really wonder whether very many ergers really row well, given how many struggle with stroking power, even though they appear to be _very_ strong and appear to be going through the motions correctly, at least to casual observation.  <br /><br />Do many ergers really learn to develop fast enough legs and good enough leverage to get any suspension on the handle at all, much less suspension on the handle from the lift with the back earlly on in the stroke right on through the middle of the stroke to the finish? Do many ergers really sequence and time the various gestures in the drive correctly and precisely enough so that the accumulating force of the sequential application of the levers is additive rather than just simultaneous? And so forth.<br /><br />Just a thought.<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Rich:<br /><br />Would you please be kind enough to explain "suspension on the handle"? I believe I understand the other aspects of what you've described or listed, but cannot get my mind around what you mean by this.<br /><br />Thanks!<br /><br />-- Mark <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Rich:<br /><br />HELP!<br /><br /> <br /><br />-- Mark

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Would you please be kind enough to explain "suspension on the handle"? </td></tr></table><br /><br />As I have tried to explain in the "rhythm of the rowing stroke" thread, the drive of my stroke is made up of a six-pulse action, that is, a series of six gestures that you rhythmize to a beat. <br /><br />On the first pulse, fully compressed at the catch, I drive with my legs off the balls of my feet. <br /><br />On the second pulse, I set my heels and lift with my back. <br /><br />At this point, both the back and legs speed up and reach maximum power. If your legs are fast and strong enough, this should lift you up from the seat (a bit) so that you are suspended on the handle rather than sitting. <br /><br />On the third pulse, the handle (coming back toward you) and the legs (being pushed away from you) cross. Just as this happens, you push especially hard with the legs while lifting especially hard with your back. If the drag is stiff enough, you will still be suspended on the handle here in the middle of the drive, too. <br /><br />On the fourth pulse, you push hard with your heels, and your legs extend and finish. At this point, you probably settle back on the seat and your ride, flying down the rail, suspended on the handle, comes to an end. <br /><br />On the fifth pulse, you pull with your arms. <br /><br />On the sixth pulse, you recover your hands.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->boy o boy, It seems you really don't know what you want/need. You keep on changing. Back to low drag again. Offcause you never should have tried the high drag.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Nothing lost trying, but you are right that I will not row at high drag. I guess I was just thrown for a loop because I did it (now) so well (e.g., 1:28 @ 36 spm)! My technique is good enough now that I can use my fast legs effectively against the high resistance.<br /><br />What I want is to go as fast as I can. I know that.<br /><br />What I need to go as fast as I can is indeed not entirely sure. But then again, is it ever? <br /><br />Even if you are having great success (as I was rowing at 200+ drag with a crap stroke, setting world records right and left), it is entirely in doubt whether this apparently successful way of rowing is the best for you. Some other way might be better.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] hjs]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Jan 12 2006, 03:23 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Jan 12 2006, 03:23 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->boy o boy, It seems you really don't know what you want/need. You keep on changing. Back to low drag again. Offcause you never should have tried the high drag.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Nothing lost trying, but you are right that I will not row at high drag. I guess I was just thrown for a loop because I did it (now) so well (e.g., 1:28 @ 36 spm)! My technique is good enough now that I can use my fast legs effectively against the high resistance.<br /><br />What I want is to go as fast as I can. I know that.<br /><br />What I need to go as fast as I can is indeed not entirely sure. But then again, is it ever? <br /><br />Even if you are having great success (as I was rowing at 200+ drag with a crap stroke, setting world records right and left), it is entirely in doubt whether this apparently successful way of rowing is the best for you. Some other way might be better.<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Ranger the proof of the pudding is the eating of it. <br />So just try 8 x 500 or 4 x1000 and you will know what you can do. It may be symple thinking but if you ask me it's as simple as that. <br />You have done all the work, now it's time to finish it off. Just do your sharpening and race.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Jan 12 2006, 06:23 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Jan 12 2006, 06:23 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->boy o boy, It seems you really don't know what you want/need. You keep on changing. Back to low drag again. Offcause you never should have tried the high drag.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Nothing lost trying, but you are right that I will not row at high drag. I guess I was just thrown for a loop because I did it (now) so well (e.g., 1:28 @ 36 spm)! My technique is good enough now that I can use my fast legs effectively against the high resistance.<br /><br />What I want is to go as fast as I can. I know that.<br /><br />What I need to go as fast as I can is indeed not entirely sure. But then again, is it ever? <br /><br />Even if you are having great success (as I was rowing at 200+ drag with a crap stroke, setting world records right and left), it is entirely in doubt whether this apparently successful way of rowing is the best for you. Some other way might be better.<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Well, if you would stop acting as if you are Captain Kirk and "going where no man has gone before", only to run into someone who has already been there, indeed things could go more smoothly. (Unless you blast away with full phasers and photon torpedoes.) There is a bit of history in rowing, and how to get the best results from a rowing stroke, on the Erg (C2 introduced in 1981, but there were others before that, Gamut, Gjessing, even an interactive one that had a avatar moving across painted scenery.) Apparently people have been very creative over teh last several hundred years. A lot of this has to be put in the context of myself being a kid that always wondered things like "why do I need to know history, can't we figure it out better now?". My how things change in just a few short years! My father (a surgeon) learned so much the moment <b>I</b> went off to University.

[[old] mpukita]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Jan 12 2006, 10:18 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Jan 12 2006, 10:18 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Would you please be kind enough to explain "suspension on the handle"? </td></tr></table><br /><br />As I have tried to explain in the "rhythm of the rowing stroke" thread, the drive of my stroke is made up of a six-pulse action, that is, a series of six gestures that you rhythmize to a beat. <br /><br />On the first pulse, fully compressed at the catch, I drive with my legs off the balls of my feet. <br /><br />On the second pulse, I set my heels and lift with my back. <br /><br />At this point, both the back and legs speed up and reach maximum power. If your legs are fast and strong enough, this should lift you up from the seat (a bit) so that you are suspended on the handle rather than sitting. <br /><br />On the third pulse, the handle (coming back toward you) and the legs (being pushed away from you) cross. Just as this happens, you push especially hard with the legs while lifting especially hard with your back. If the drag is stiff enough, you will still be suspended on the handle here in the middle of the drive, too. <br /><br />On the fourth pulse, you push hard with your heels, and your legs extend and finish. At this point, you probably settle back on the seat and your ride, flying down the rail, suspended on the handle, comes to an end. <br /><br />On the fifth pulse, you pull with your arms. <br /><br />On the sixth pulse, you recover your hands.<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Thanks Rich ... I was somehow missing the "lift" off the seat, although I tried it, and do see what you mean. Not sure it's a stroke for me (yet?) because it appears either my legs aren't fast enough or drag factor (at 111) is not high enough. Hard for me to get out of the seat and suspend on the handle this way unless I do something very unnatural.<br /><br />A question ... this appears to be a stroke optimized to a LW ... it would appear a real HW would have some problem doing this efficiently ... perhaps?<br />

[[old] mpukita]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Jan 12 2006, 10:18 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Jan 12 2006, 10:18 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Would you please be kind enough to explain "suspension on the handle"? </td></tr></table><br /><br />As I have tried to explain in the "rhythm of the rowing stroke" thread, the drive of my stroke is made up of a six-pulse action, that is, a series of six gestures that you rhythmize to a beat. <br /><br />On the first pulse, fully compressed at the catch, I drive with my legs off the balls of my feet. <br /><br />On the second pulse, I set my heels and lift with my back. <br /><br />At this point, both the back and legs speed up and reach maximum power. If your legs are fast and strong enough, this should lift you up from the seat (a bit) so that you are suspended on the handle rather than sitting. <br /><br />On the third pulse, the handle (coming back toward you) and the legs (being pushed away from you) cross. Just as this happens, you push especially hard with the legs while lifting especially hard with your back. If the drag is stiff enough, you will still be suspended on the handle here in the middle of the drive, too. <br /><br />On the fourth pulse, you push hard with your heels, and your legs extend and finish. At this point, you probably settle back on the seat and your ride, flying down the rail, suspended on the handle, comes to an end. <br /><br />On the fifth pulse, you pull with your arms. <br /><br />On the sixth pulse, you recover your hands.<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Thanks Rich ... I was somehow missing the "lift" off the seat, although I tried it, and do see what you mean. Not sure it's a stroke for me (yet?) because it appears either my legs aren't fast enough or drag factor (at 111) is not high enough. Hard for me to get out of the seat and suspend on the handle this way unless I do something very unnatural.<br /><br />A question ... this appears to be a stroke optimized to a LW ... it would appear a real HW would have some problem doing this efficiently ... perhaps?<br />

[[old] John Rupp]

Rich,<br /><br />How much warm up time have you been able to get, at the warm up sites at the races?<br /><br />Has it been enough, and what warm ups did you do on the erg?<br /><br />Thanks.

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, if you would stop acting as if you are Captain Kirk and "going where no man has gone before", only to run into someone who has already been there, indeed things could go more smoothly </td></tr></table><br /><br />Paul--<br /><br />On the matter of the rowing stroke, I don't disagree at all. I followed your advice. The results, I think, are great.<br /><br />I am not at all "going where no man has gone before" with the rowing stroke! I am just learning standard, OTW technique. Your suggestion that I row all my meters in the off season strapless at low drag and work on technique all the while (even though I was a WR holder at the time) was exactly what I needed to succeed. First, it got my two more world record rows and two seconds off my 2K. Now I am testing the results again, this time after two more years of work.<br /><br />Thanks again.<br /><br />Love and kisses,<br /><br /> <br /><br />ranger xoxoxoxox

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 12 2006, 01:03 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 12 2006, 01:03 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Rich,<br /><br />How much warm up time have you been able to get, at the warm up sites at the races?<br /><br />Has it been enough, and what warm ups did you do on the erg?<br /><br />Thanks. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />As you know, I warm up a lot, but I have never had any problem with this at race sites. I have always had plenty of time to warm up, including on the erg. On race day, I usually skip rope and do sit ups when I get up, while drinking a couple of cups of coffee, just the get the (old!) body moving. Then I do about 10-15K or so on the erg a bit before the race, mostly working up to race pace and beyond in a fartlek format and then finishing with some steady rowing concentrating on relaxation and efficiency.<br /><br />ranger<br />

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hard for me to get out of the seat and suspend on the handle this way unless I do something very unnatural. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Mark--<br /><br />Welcome to the rowing stroke! It is neither natural nor easy. But if you master it, it is an impressive little engine! <br /><br />To get enough force in the middle of the drive to suspend on the handle, you need to smoothly time and sequence the first three pulses in the drive, but with explosive force, while smoothly rolling from toe to heel at the footplate. This takes some concentration and practice. Most ergers, I think, especially beginners, just pull, push, and lift--all together--at the catch. This sacrifices the additive _length_ of the levers operating individually: legs, then back, then back _and_ legs HARD, and then arms. The rowing stroke is more like a whiplash than a crowbar.<br /><br />ranger