report on C2 Dynamic

[Ultramega OK]

So I guess the bottom line question is which of the dynamic options is best? By best I mean most closely simulates rowing OTW. I realize that there is complete substitute. I would be particularly interested in comparisons between the C2 Dynamic and the C2 on slides and Also the Dynamic vs. The Oartec Slider and Rowperfect Indoor Sculler. I realize that other threads discuss these but I haven't seen anything from anyone who has tried all the options side by side. I would suspect that the Dynamic offers a very different feel from the Oartec and Rowperfect. And also is there anything about RP that even remotely justifies its higher price? Thanks.

I can't speak for the RP and OS. I have never even seen either of them. But after a year with a model D on slides and about 4 dozen pieces on the Dynamic, my view is that the D on slides is far quieter and has a slightly better feel than the Dynamic. If it were not for the footprint issue, I would have stuck with the D on slides. I would use a static only when there is no other choice, like in an ergatta.

Bob S.

Thanks for the helpful comments. Sounds like the D on slides is the best bet if you have space.

[Nosmo]

A lot of interesting comments on the C2 Dynamic here:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.spor ... 5e93?hl=en#

The discussion is the most thoughtful and informed I've seen about the dynamic erg. Makes the complaints look a lot less valid--at least for those who row on the water.

[Viking]

After reading the article in Rowing News about the dynamic erg I decided to give my own opinion. I have put many millions of meters on the standard erg and about 2 million on slides. The DE is different. I feel it uses different muscles or uses muscules differently. At first it seemed much harder my splits were 5 sc slower per 500m. After my first 100k meters my splits are back to normal although at a higher spm. My normal SS was 20 - 21 spm now its 23-24 similar to slides. I wanted to try the RP at hocr but Carlos was on the machine while I was there. The Oar tech slider felt the same as a D on slides. I am hoping that the new erg skills will trasfer over to the water. This is Just my opinion. SG

[Bill]

This paper may be relevant.

http://highperformancerowing.net/journa ... omechanics

2nd paper on page

"Comparison of Rowing on a Concept2 Staionary and DYnamic Ergometer"

Statitical comparison of various rowers on C2 static and c2 dynamic

Bill

[Bob S.]

This paper may be relevant.

http://highperformancerowing.net/journa ... omechanics

2nd paper on page

"Comparison of Rowing on a Concept2 Staionary and DYnamic Ergometer"

Statitical comparison of various rowers on C2 static and c2 dynamic

Bill

Apparently they did not use the C2 dynamic. They used the same model C2s, probably Ds, but were comparing grounded ergometers and ergometers on slides. At least that is what the diagram shows. The words in the title, "Stationary and Dynamic," must refer to different conditions, not to different models.

Bob S.

[Dreadnought]

It's not clear to me if there is any real benefit to working out with the dynamic ergometer. We have the standard C2's at our gym and I use them a fair amount. I have been thinking about getting a dynamic for myself, but I'm just not convinced of the benefit.

I have heard some talk of less back strain and less injuries. Any evidence to support this?

[JRBJR]

It's not clear to me if there is any real benefit to working out with the dynamic ergometer. We have the standard C2's at our gym and I use them a fair amount. I have been thinking about getting a dynamic for myself, but I'm just not convinced of the benefit.

I have heard some talk of less back strain and less injuries. Any evidence to support this?

I'd say there is some anecdotal evidence that dynamic rowing ergs are better on the back than static ergs, but no concrete scientific proof of it has yet been established. To date, the entire dynamic vs. static debate is steeped in unsubstantiated marketing hype, wishful thinking, and subjective speculation. Quite a few persons who now use dynamics, including myself, claim to feel less stress and strain in the back and hips than they did with static ergs. But that may due more to using better rowing technique on the dynamic (keeping the back straight, flexing at the hips instead of the spine at the catch, etc.) than any inherent design superiority. The Australians seem to be in the forefront of promoting the dynamic erg and trying to prove its real benefits over the static, but I haven't yet seen any long-term control studies (dynamics, including C2 slides, have only been in widespread use for a decade or so) that confirm its physiologic advantages.

I'd say the most important variables in minimizing the risk of back injury while erging are proper technique (see some of Xeno's videos for good guidance) and a lucky genetic predisposition against spinal disc herniation. A person with really good technique and genetics can probably do better on a static erg than someone without them who uses a dynamic.

[Rockin Roland]

There are two clear cut advantages that a dynamic erg offers over a static erg: (i) Substantial reduction in the risk of injury, (ii) Much better boat simulation feel to that of rowing on the water.

What evidence, other than marketing hype, exists to support this?

In the case of less risk of injury, one only has to take note of all the posts relating to injuries that have occured to C2 users on this forum over the last decade. That in itself, without the need for any controlled scientific study, tells you that there is plenty of evidence, right here on this forum, indicating the injury issues with static ergs. In Australia there has also been records kept of the alarming number of injuries to elite rowers training on static C2 ergs. This ultimately lead to a move to do all testing for elite crew selection in Australia on slided ergs. This wouldn't of happened if the static erg injury risk issue was inconclusive.

The boat simulation advantage of a dynamic erg over a static erg is really a no brainer. This obviuosly means little to a gym erg user but to an OTW rower it's significant technique training benefits of the double action(moving flywheel) makes a difference. Although a well polished elite OTW rower can perform perfect technique on both types of ergs, in the real world of OTW rowing only a small number of people are fortunate to have such skills. Most OTW rowers use static ergs unsupervised for much of their land based training. This often leads to bad technical habits encouraged by the static erg that has to be coached out of them when they're out on the water. A dynamic erg will punish bad technique habits, although less so on a C2 dynamic than on the better designed Rowperfect erg.

[JRBJR]

Gee Rockin, you didn't get in the obligatory plug for the Rowperfect erg until the final sentence of your post.

I actually believe you're correct in your assertion that the dynamic erg, all things being equal, is probably an injury-free alternative to the injury-inducing static erg. That's the primary reason I now use a C2 erg on slides.

My point was simply that this assertion has not yet been proven scientifically and ruled out all other possible causal factors. For example, are there absolutely no cases of any kind of injury, even minor, on a dynamic erg? I don''t know. What do the Australian studies show so far? Are the reported cases of static erg injury you cite caused exclusively by the fixed design of the static, or might not the fact that there are far more static erg users who don't use proper rowing technique play a role? You yourself acknowlege that the dynamic erg punishes bad technique habits, so might not the superior technique used on the dynamics be a factor in in the evident absence of injury reports? No one can answer these types of questions with absolute certainty at this point due to the absence of long-term, well-controlled scientifc studies to date.

[Rockin Roland]

Gee Rockin, you didn't get in the obligatory plug for the Rowperfect erg until the final sentence of your post.

I actually believe you're correct in your assertion that the dynamic erg, all things being equal, is probably an injury-free alternative to the injury-inducing static erg. That's the primary reason I now use a C2 erg on slides.

Over the last few days I've had access to a C2 dynamic erg at one of the rowing clubs. I put it through its paces and racked up some serious meters on it, so that I could compare it to all the other dynamic and slided ergs that I've been using over the years. Here are some of my thoughts:

I like it's high stance and small footprint. The monitor is well positioned at an easy to read height and generally the rowing position is quite comfortable. However the seat is too big, hard and wide for my preferences. I have an issue though with the feet being positioned so far part. It felt unnatural for rowing and believe this needs to be rectified for future upgrades as all the other dynamic ergs (Oartec & Rowperfect) have the feet closer together, similar to that in a rowing shell.

The C2 dynamic rowing action in my opinion is a far more enjoyable action to do than the now outdated and less relevant rowing action of a static C2 erg. In fact I can't see any logic in purchasing a static C2 erg now that the C2 dynamic is available. Just like the other dynamic ergs I've used I also noticed less strain on the lower back and generally less truama on the body than the harsh static erg.

If your a gym person who doesn't do any OTW rowing then the C2 dynamic is an ideal unit to purchase. It's smooth, comfortable and enjoyable to use. However, if your an OTW rower looking for an erg for dryland training you need to be aware of some of it's shortcomings that the other dynamic erg brands don't have. I recommend that you try an Oartec or Rowperfect first before deciding on a C2 dynamic.

A very experienced rowing friend of mine jumped on the C2 dynamic erg after I had completed my workout. He looked very awkward on it and struggled to get a fluid rowing motion going. To him the erg felt more like a gym leg press than a rowing simulator. I suggested to him to lower the drag by moving the fan lever down to the number 3 setting. I also got him to fasten the bungee cord to the seat to restrict its movement.Immediately he started to look and feel more comfortable.

Although some experienced rowers may initially have technique issues on a C2 dynamic I found it really easy to use, right from the very first stroke. In fact I thought it wasn't tecnically challenging enough for me so I undid the bungee cord holding the seat in place. I have done the same on my Rowperfect seat and much prefer it's small unstable limited tilt seat for a more challenging technical row.

My last thought on the C2 dynamic is the question of whether I reckon it's better than a C2 erg on slides. I would have to say certainly yes but not by a huge amount. It's much closer weighted to the feel of a boat as the greatest fault of a C2 erg on slides is that it feels way too heavy. I would also say that a C2 erg on slides is tecnically more difficult to use around the front and back turns than a C2 dynamic.

[Bob S.]

Good report, Roland. I'm glad that you have finally had a chance to check out the dynamic.

Bob S.

[slwiser]

Yes, I thought it was a good write-up as well.