Looking to pull the trigger, some questions...

[Mort]

Hey all, I'm looking to get myself a rower. Winter is coming and in the interest of not going to a gym anymore, I'm acquiring the pieces for my own 'home/apartment' gym. A weight bench, a pair bowflex selecttech dumbbells, a doorway pull-up bar, and a rower seem to be plenty enough to get the job done. The thought of getting my cardio done indoors when the weather outside sucks is appealing to me. That, and I took a nasty ankle sprain injury several years ago that still affects me to this day whenever the weather makes a significant change, so a low-impact alternative to running & sprints would be great.

I'm contemplating either a Model D or go the WaterRower route (more on that at below), and I have some concerns before I plunk money down.

1) My fitness philosophy has pretty much been anaerobic, HIIT, balls-out for the past several years with steady-state cardio as an afterthought, assuming I think of it at all. My biggest concern is losing a huge chunk of that lean muscle mass with a rower. I weigh 200 lbs at 5'10"; while heavy, I'm reasonably fit, can sprint fast and have some solid muscle mass, I just carry more body fat than I would like and would like to maintain around a nice 175 or 180. Presently, I would like to go from running-back size to, say, 'muscular tennis player' size. I am actually looking to get into tennis, a sport I thoroughly enjoy, but I want to keep the power I have particularly when it comes to speed/acceleration. I won't lose sleep if I can't bench 225 lbs for 10 reps anymore, though I might if 135 is a struggle! When doing the research on these, I've see videos of many rowers who are far skinnier than I would like to be...no offense, but I would like to still take advantage of my mesomorphic build.

In short, are there training methods with these things that will prevent muscle loss? Is effective HIIT and sprint workouts possible on these? I DO plan on complementing a traditional routine with the rower, not just using a rower exclusively. Probably four-five days a week during inclement weather, and one or two during nice weather.

2) The reason why I'm undecided on either the Model D or WaterRower is noise. I live in an old Victorian-era apartment building...not a whole lot of tenants, but the walls aren't the most noise suppressive. While I usually walk out of the office at 4:00 and can squeeze in an afternoon workout before some of the other dwellers got back, anything too noisy may rule out early morning workouts or possibly something in the middle of the day. I've heard the WaterRower is very quiet, while the videos I've heard of the Model D seem loud. While not the biggest deal breaker, I have to admit it has me leaning in the water direction, even at extra cost. If anyone can assuage my concerns on noise with the Model D, I'm all ears.

3) Space. Looks like I can just tilt the WR vertically, I'm not sure what storage is like for the Model D.

Those are about the only big concerns I have, although there may be other plusses to the Model D that outweigh what I'm considering on the WaterRower, such as the monitor.

Thanks for giving this a read and I appreciate any feedback.

[Carl Watts]

Your posting on the wrong Forum for an unbiased opinion.

Concept 2 Model D. It's the worlds best selling Erg and used in 95% of Gyms for good reason.

Get the drag set to 130-140 for your height and weight to avoid the possibility of back injury and away you go.

Having said that the Erg is a lifeless, solitary experience unless you add RowPro so you can row with your mates or other like minded individuals from all over the world that like a bit of competition and/or can handle coming last in a row. Your only going to get this with a Concept 2 Erg so the decision is easy.

http://www.digitalrowing.com

[sheehc]

In short, are there training methods with these things that will prevent muscle loss? Is effective HIIT and sprint workouts possible on these?

Pretty much every, and any, piece of equipment can be used in an aerobic or anaerobic manner based purely on the way you structure the workout. The issue isn't the equipment, its the training plan used and how well the person can use the particular equipment. For what it's worth, crossfit is all HIT and they use the C2 erg a lot.

Can't comment on the water rower as I've only used C2 and rowperfect machines.

[luckylindy]

Regarding noise - we keep our rower in the basement, and it never bothers the kids or my wife on the first floor. It seems a little loud while you're on it, but from even a few feet away it's not obnoxious or anything.

[jamesg]

The C2 erg tells us what we're doing in terms of engineering Work, so lets us exercise to a plan. Don't know about the WR, but you can always use the sweat index (2 litres or 2kg lost is a good workout).

Neither machine is of any use if you can't row and don't learn how; they can't teach rowing, unless you follow a very specific training plan based on high work and low force, but the stroke quality (or work content per stroke) is essential to getting fit - no work, no gain.

I think weight work and getting fit are contradictory: if you do some serious weights, you'll need 2-3 days recovery so won't be able to work enough to get fit. On the other hand if the weights are light, might as well get on the erg which lets you pull as you like. We spin a flywheel, so we decide the load, which is inertial, not static. You'll get fit with little risk of injury, using all your muscle in one go; and so one piece of kit suffices. Just remember boats are light and fast, so we have to be that too. Extra weight is no use at any time of day, and certainly not afloat.

[Mort]

Your posting on the wrong Forum for an unbiased opinion.

While I am aware I am at the official Concept 2 site, I am also giving the membership here the benefit of the doubt of having opinions of their own that don't necessarily correlate with those of the C2 sales team.

Your only going to get this with a Concept 2 Erg so the decision is easy.

A $900 purchase is never easy...hence this thread. Usually such statements drive me away from a purchase.

In short, are there training methods with these things that will prevent muscle loss? Is effective HIIT and sprint workouts possible on these?

Pretty much every, and any, piece of equipment can be used in an aerobic or anaerobic manner based purely on the way you structure the workout. The issue isn't the equipment, its the training plan used and how well the person can use the particular equipment. For what it's worth, crossfit is all HIT and they use the C2 erg a lot.

Can't comment on the water rower as I've only used C2 and rowperfect machines.

That's definitely a solid answer to my first concern. Thanks for the post!

Regarding noise - we keep our rower in the basement, and it never bothers the kids or my wife on the first floor. It seems a little loud while you're on it, but from even a few feet away it's not obnoxious or anything.

OK, that's good. While not the biggest issue, it was a concern of mine and I didn't want to become the a-hole in the building that is annoying everyone else. It wouldn't bother me so much, I just don't want to get a call from the landlord saying "Hey, that $900 piece of equipment you got? Yeah, you can't use that anymore", though I'm sure that won't be a problem.

The C2 erg tells us what we're doing in terms of engineering Work, so lets us exercise to a plan. Don't
know about the WR, but you can always use the sweat index (2 litres or 2kg lost is a good workout).

Neither machine is of any use if you can't row and don't learn how; they can't teach rowing, unless you follow a very specific training plan based on high work and low force, but the stroke quality (or work content per stroke) is essential to getting fit - no work, no gain.

OK, I don't know what it was in my original post that this is referencing specifically; I wasn't planning on getting one of these in the interest of using terrible form. Given my training history, the idea of "no work, no gain" is not a foreign concept to me.

I think weight work and getting fit are contradictory: if you do some serious weights, you'll need 2-3 days recovery so won't be able to work enough to get fit.

Huh!? I don't find this true. At all. There are countless professional athletes who lift weights as a serious part of their regimen, and it would be nonsense to call them unfit. It never has been that big of a problem for me in the past to maintain overall fitness while incorporating weight training...to have some semblance of power to be able to move quickly, you have to have some resistance in there, and generally that will come from weight training. While I have lately been lifting heavy and getting bulky, I have also been going to failure (not to mention supplementing my diet with 'whatever is at the office' considering I struggle to get in quality sources of my own...I could be much leaner from diet alone, but I also concede that I have been lax in the cardiovascular department).

[johnlvs2run]

The concept2 can be stood upright very easily, the same that the water rower apparently can.

I put the modelD in the backseat of my car a few years ago, wheeled it into a meeting room, and stood it up
on it's end at the side of the room. Midway through the meeting, I put the machine in the middle of the room,
and gave a presentation on it's use, thereafter setting it up on it's end again at the side of the room. After the
meeting, about 1/2 the people on the room sat on the machine and rowed a few strokes.

As to noise, the modelD is reasonably quite. It is most definitely much more quiet than the level of noise most
people have their tv's.

I'm not sure how quiet a WR is, but might be much more quiet than a c2 modelD. If that is a prime consideration,
then the WR would be your best choice. One thing I have always liked about the c2 machines is that they have a
really good monitor. The pm2 was the best, but the pm3 is still pretty good. The WR does not have a good monitor.

My favorite setup is a modelC or D with a c2 monitor on the slides.

[Mort]

Y'know, the more I've been seeing some of you people raving about the D's monitor, the more interested in it I become.

Glad to hear another user downplaying the noise.

I should make something clear, I was pretty much considering the Model D from the get go, but I didn't even know the Waterrower was a thing until a few days ago. I've been leaning Model D over the WR, but I just want to make sure my circumstances warranted the latter. From what I'm hearing though, the D sounds more promising than the WR (and less pricey too!).

[wgr]

One more thing about the cost of these.

I bought a model C 11 years ago for about $750. My maintenance was zilch, apart from the monthly oiling of the chain and I did crank it quite hard at times. Sold it this spring for $500. They will keep their value and they don't seem to break.

[carlb]

1) My fitness philosophy has pretty much been anaerobic, HIIT, balls-out for the past several years with steady-state cardio as an afterthought, assuming I think of it at all. My biggest concern is losing a huge chunk of that lean muscle mass with a rower. I weigh 200 lbs at 5'10"; while heavy, I'm reasonably fit, can sprint fast and have some solid muscle mass, I just carry more body fat than I would like and would like to maintain around a nice 175 or 180.

In short, are there training methods with these things that will prevent muscle loss? Is effective HIIT and sprint workouts possible on these?

There are plenty of papers and books finding that with HIIT also doing moderate intensity (75%) long duration workouts is needed. It allows having more intensity in HIIT works. It burns much more fat than HIIT. It changes the body in a very different way during recovery, it adapts to fat burning and fueling demands. Recovery after HIIT is more about repair and some building muscle. Here's 2 I bookmarked http://www.sullivanstriders.org/train_e ... theory.htm http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 14#p160533

You can do both HIIT and Long lower intensity works on the C2 by using the PM + a HR belt. It just takes a little planning and logging to learn your performance level. I've found rowing to be a really great cardio exercise that uses a lot of muscles.

You are 20 to 30 pounds too heavy. Putting in plenty of time on the C2 will be a good way to lose that. You will want to work the muscles not used by the C2 stroke, i.e. chest, abs, hip extens (illpoas?). You should look at the Pete plan, it mixes 2 kinds of intervals withe long works.

I've only used a WR about 30 minutes. It's a nice machine, seems quality made. Looks incredible. Feels smooth. Not sure I felt the rowing position felt as good as C2. I think messing with the water would be a PITA. I could live with it.

I think C2 is the way to go. They sell more then any others and are everywhere. There are addons like slides. Much research is done using C2, none with WR. They are durable and nicely warranted for 2 yrs and 5 yrs. Big online community and online challenges with C2. It does make more noise then the WR, but it is also easy to adjust drag, no changing water. It's also larger (put together) and does not look like furniture. Should you want to get out C2's sell on CL and for a good price, and the buyer can take it away in a car.

If you want to try a WR then I would suggest getting it off CL used for under $600. Depending on your market you might wait a long time, I rarely see them. Some older ones will come without a monitor, and I think you want one.

Compared to Treadmills, bikes, eliptcals, etc... I think rowers are really cheap and a great deal. A $1000 machine that will last you a lifetime, provide an excellent workout and even resell on CL for a great price.

So a few thoughts for you..,..

[redzone]

I bought a Waterrower a few years ago to replace my C2 for exactly the same reason. Whilst quiet and with a nice catch feel, the main problem is the monitor is totally useless. The C2 monitor only has to contend with air and bearing friction and as these are generally constant it can accurately calculate the drag on the machine and hence work out the work you are putting into it to spin the fan. The Waterrower has to contend with variable amounts of water being involved as well. This leads to incredibly inaccurate results which is a real PITA as you're not sure if you're doing better or if it's just the monitor. Because of the way the C2 monitor works, you can accurately compare you results with any other user around the globe. This makes for a great community and is a real boon if you're rowing alone at home.

Just to confuse things, I now use a Rowperfect which lives in the garage. Don't ask - they are expensive and noisy as hell and not worth it unless you row on the water.

[Mort]

Well guys, after much deliberation, I think I'll stick with Concept 2 and grab me a Model D. I probably won't do so until November...I'll take advantage of the pre-winter weather for now, and I just purchased an impromptu pair of Selecttech 1090 Dumbbells (50% off and free shipping coupon codes FTW) which set my bank account back a shade. Can't wait to be a part of the rowing community. Looking forward to hocking up a lung!

[philwhite7]

Where'd you get the Selecttech 1090s for 50 percent off? Can you share that with the rest of us - would love to get a pair!

PW

[Mort]

Where'd you get the Selecttech 1090s for 50 percent off? Can you share that with the rest of us - would love to get a pair!

PW

Man, I feel bad for not having posted it here, though I wasn't sure if it would be kosher or not to link to another brand's products.

It was only a single-day use coupon code that was used on their site. About 50% off AND free shipping. Before I hit submit for my coupon code, my total was like $800 or so, but with the code, it came out to about $370 (tax included).

Keep your eye on Slickdeals. I totally caught it by chance...I've been keeping an eye out but had been less diligent in the past few weeks. Thankfully I just happened to check when the coupon went up. Don't fret though, Bowflex seems to do this about 3 times a year or so. Last year they had this promo run during September, though I can't say they ran it so early prior in July.

[philwhite7]

Not a big deal. Yes, definitely post a deal like that if you ever see it again. Hope you enjoy using the 1090s, and the C2.