New erger. Advice wanted! :-) Pete Plan?

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
unladen_swallow
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New erger. Advice wanted! :-) Pete Plan?

Post by unladen_swallow » September 14th, 2010, 1:04 am

Me:

37, female, former athlete (tournament fighter) who got pretty fat over the course of seven years of grad school (it's two doctorates, it takes awhile. And no, I'm not done with my dissertation yet, Mom. :-)) Between being sedentary, drinking too much wine and beer at night, and eating wrong food... Some people had anti-depressants: I had crab rangoon. Bad. I've lost 40 pounds in the last two years and am 15 pounds away from being at my pre-grad school weight. All this is to say that I'm overweight without having to actually tell the interwebs my weight. Still, I packed it on over a fairly solid muscle base. I'm fat like a retired football player is fat. Smexay, amirite?

I am, as a trainer might diplomatically term it, deconditioned. I'm not in shape. At all. I found erging one day when I was at the gym and all the other cardio machines were taken. I loved it. I watched a lot of technique videos when I got home. I spent a week developing technique as carefully as I could. I asked someone at a local rowing club to watch me, she says I look fine (and didn't need to lean back quite so much). I followed the Concept2 beginner workout plan but it was not enough, I also had to keep doing my elliptical to get in cardio. Then I found the Pete Plan. And now I suspect that what Pete has planned is my imminent demise.

I rowed 5000m on Day 1 of Week 1, per the Pete Plan. I had to take lots of breaks. I did not record the time. Then I rowed the 6x 500m splits with 2 minutes of rest in between. My splits started long (2:46) and shortened up (last one was 2:33) as I started feeling like I had plenty left to make the last couple of splits, and had maybe been pacing too slow in the first three. I know those splits sound infinity long. Bear in mind that this is my first week of erging in my entire life, OK? And before this I was hamstering around on ellipticals. And before that I was either sitting on my butt at a desk or passed out on said desk while still clutching a bottle of whiskey in one hand and a 24 ounce espresso in the other.

I rowed another 5000m, again per the plan, and it went OK. I took one two minute halfway break. I rowed it in 35 minutes. I thought this was fine. I had no idea what someone at my level should be rowing, so I just focused on form and rowed until I was done with the task.

WEEK TWO. OK, so today I rowed 5500. It took 38 minutes, and I was a wreck at the end. I tried very hard not to take breaks but had to stop and catch my breath a couple of times. I was not displeased because at least I got in another 500 above last week and my splits were basically 15 seconds more than my sprint splits, which I think is about right? So I was like YEAH. And then I got home and read this re: the prescribed 20 minute workout this week (fourth workout of the second week): "It's very likely now that 20 minutes is less than it took you to row the 5500m this week, so aim to row this at the same pace [etc. etc.]" and I was just absolutely *flattened*. I mean, less than 20 minutes for me to row 5500? What the what? SERIOUSLY?! I'm 18 minutes over my "probable" time? I was supposed to be able to do that in my second week of erging?

Next week I am supposed to row 6000. And 6500 the week after that. I am wondering about this whole Pete Plan thing now - is this a beginner plan for people who are already in shape - like an 8 and up on a 10 scale of fitness- and are learning a new sport, or is this a beginner plan intended for people like me who aren't higher than a 5 on the fitness scale, at best?

On the Pete Plan I will row approximately 20,000m this week in four workouts. I can see from the boards that this is on the low end, that people regularly do 30,000m a week as a minimum and up to 100,000m a week. I'm baffled. Do other new people start out from sedentary to 30,000m a week without a hitch?

I am seeing some dramatic improvement in body composition and toning in my two weeks on the erg (the thigh jiggle is all but gone, which is awesome) but I can't imagine being able to row 10,000 meters without any breaks. I literally can't imagine it. I still haven't even got through a 5000 without having to take a breather midway through.

Can someone help me reason this out? I'm not trying to be lazy or lowball my conditioning - I'm trying to erg my way back to fitness from a pretty deconditioned state. Should I stick with the Pete Plan? Repeat weeks until I can get through their respective endurance rows without a break?

I have no coach or trainer, I'm on my own. I couldn't even *find* a trainer in town who understood what I was talking about, none of them even knew the word erg, some thought I was having them on until I finally gave up and started just talking about "the rowing machine."

Sorry this has gone on for so long! :oops:

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Re: New erger. Advice wanted! :-) Pete Plan?

Post by jamesg » September 14th, 2010, 2:38 am

Well done on getting started. Don't stop, not for the next sixty years anyway.

Suggest you concentrate on technique initially, making sure your stroke is long and quick with a slow recovery. A low damper setting is needed for this, say 2-3 if your machine is clean; this will also avoid a pull that's too hard, which is not needed now, but will allow a long fast pull, always needed. It also simulates a boats that travel furthest when the blades are out of the water.

Oddly enough, a long quick stroke can be developed by starting with very short strokes, all to be done with no rush:

- On the back stop, sit up straight and pull with arms only; you'll see rating maybe 50-60 and 50 Watts.
- Then after a few minutes, add some body swing, keeping your back straight: rating 30-40, 60-80 watts.
- Again after a few minutes, lift your knees AFTER the forward swing, to maybe a quarter slide. You'll see the rating drop and the Watts increase. Then as you get warm, increase slide length, always after forward swing, until you get your hands near the chainguard. Your stroke is now full length, your legs are working hard, and the rating should be around 20-25 according to your height.

Pay special attention to your posture at the catch: well forward, head up, back straight, shins vertical, weight on your feet. This allows a fast catch.

The idea is to take long effective strokes each with plenty of work in them, but to control the overall power by controlling rating (strokes per minute). You then monitor your reactions using heart rate, which must not get too high, so that you can continue as long as you like.

Until your stroke is a good one, do NOT do any planned training. Training may get you fit, but is a distraction and does not teach you to row. In any case 20-30 minutes a day with plenty of sweat is fine. Learning to row is far more important, and is indeed a sine qua non to doing effective training later. A bad stroke has little work in it so cannot train you.

This is the catch in rowing: the better you row, the tougher it gets; but the faster the boat.
08-1940, 183cm, 83kg.
2024: stroke 5.5W-min@20-21. ½k 190W, 1k 145W, 2k 120W. Using Wods 4-5days/week

ThatMoos3Guy
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Re: New erger. Advice wanted! :-) Pete Plan?

Post by ThatMoos3Guy » September 14th, 2010, 10:10 am

unladen_swallow wrote:
WEEK TWO. OK, so today I rowed 5500. It took 38 minutes, and I was a wreck at the end. I tried very hard not to take breaks but had to stop and catch my breath a couple of times. I was not displeased because at least I got in another 500 above last week and my splits were basically 15 seconds more than my sprint splits, which I think is about right? So I was like YEAH. And then I got home and read this re: the prescribed 20 minute workout this week (fourth workout of the second week): "It's very likely now that 20 minutes is less than it took you to row the 5500m this week, so aim to row this at the same pace [etc. etc.]" and I was just absolutely *flattened*. I mean, less than 20 minutes for me to row 5500? What the what? SERIOUSLY?! I'm 18 minutes over my "probable" time? I was supposed to be able to do that in my second week of erging?
When it says "20 minutes is less than it took you to row 5500m" it means that 5500m will take longer than 20 minutes...

Don't worry so much about your times, and breaks for now. Just keep erging and you'll get fitter and faster.

Also, if you go over to the concept2.co.uk message boards there are a couple threads about the pete plan, which pete posts in regularly.

Keep it up!

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Re: New erger. Advice wanted! :-) Pete Plan?

Post by MRapp » September 14th, 2010, 10:41 am

Do you have access to video equipment? If so, tape yourself erging and post it in this thread for the experts here to analyze. Their advice will be humbling but invaluable. Having a trainer say you "look fine" or something similar means nothing and there's probably a LOT of improvement to be had on technique.

I can speak from experience that erging is a very specific fitness. Being in great shape doesn't mean you can erg well, so being out of shape means erging will be really tough at first. I like the advice above about not worrying about a training plan. First get your technique figured out by posting here. Then get on the erg and just for as long as you have time for each day. Adjust the speed accordingly...going slower but steady for 30 minutes is better than going too fast and having to take breaks to finish out your time/distance.

Good luck, look forward to seeing your progress.

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Re: New erger. Advice wanted! :-) Pete Plan?

Post by Citroen » September 14th, 2010, 11:42 am

5500m in 38min is a 3:27.2 pace (time to complete 500m). That means you're doing no work, so unless you're an eighty year old, 5'2" tall, lightweight (<135lb) lady there's lots of room for improvement.

Read this: http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=38
and watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqVmMd7FdAA
Dougie Lawson
61yrs, 172cm, Almost LWt (in my dreams).
Twitter: @DougieLawson

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Re: New erger. Advice wanted! :-) Pete Plan?

Post by redzone » September 14th, 2010, 12:54 pm

unladen_swallow wrote:Me:
: "It's very likely now that 20 minutes is less than it took you to row the 5500m this week, so aim to row this at the same pace [etc. etc.]" and I was just absolutely *flattened*. I mean, less than 20 minutes for me to row 5500? What the what? SERIOUSLY?! I'm 18 minutes over my "probable" time? I was supposed to be able to do that in my second week of erging?
Ha, I remember going through exactly the same thing about 3 years ago! I think you are following a plan that Pete and Andy Darling wrote a while back to get people into erging. (It's a pdf with a training log at the back, correct?) It means 20 minutes is less time than it took for you to row 5500m i.e. It took more than 20mins for you to row 5500m I wrote to Pete about it at the time and he said that they could have written it a bit better. :D

FYI, What most people refer to as the Pete plan is at http://thepeteplan.wordpress.com/the-pete-plan/

Keep at it, post that video and your times will come flying down in the next few weeks.

unladen_swallow
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Re: New erger. Advice wanted! :-) Pete Plan?

Post by unladen_swallow » September 14th, 2010, 2:20 pm

It means 20 minutes is less time than it took for you to row 5500m i.e. It took more than 20mins for you to row 5500m I wrote to Pete about it at the time and he said that they could have written it a bit better.
OK, I feel better. And also like I should have been able to figure that out - reading comprehension! Ack.

I will email around and see if I can find someone to come to the gym to video my erging during the day (it's a madhouse at night) - hopefully I can get that scheduled by early next week at the latest.

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Re: New erger. Advice wanted! :-) Pete Plan?

Post by unladen_swallow » September 14th, 2010, 2:23 pm

Citroen wrote:5500m in 38min is a 3:27.2 pace (time to complete 500m). That means you're doing no work, so unless you're an eighty year old, 5'2" tall, lightweight (<135lb) lady there's lots of room for improvement.

Read this: http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=38
and watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqVmMd7FdAA
I know that the 38 minute time looks like I was rowing 3:27, but that time includes me having to stop and take breaks every 1500 meters or so and isn't what I was rowing continuously. Frankly, I think I was going too fast. My splits on sprints a few days ago were all a second or two around 2:45, with the last one 2:30something, and I wasn't far off that for the 5500. I just can't row that fast for that long right now.

I don't think it's particularly helpful to compare me to a frail old lady. That was pretty mean. I just started and I'm trying to figure all this out, and insults aren't useful to me or anyone else. Honestly, I don't know why you would say something that condescending and horrid.

unladen_swallow
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Re: New erger. Advice wanted! :-) Pete Plan?

Post by unladen_swallow » September 14th, 2010, 2:24 pm

ThatMoos3Guy wrote:
unladen_swallow wrote:
Also, if you go over to the concept2.co.uk message boards there are a couple threads about the pete plan, which pete posts in regularly.

Keep it up!
Good to know, thank you!

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Re: New erger. Advice wanted! :-) Pete Plan?

Post by MRapp » September 14th, 2010, 2:31 pm

I think you'll find that some people here are from other countries and their messages aren't meant to come across exactly how they sound. Others are intentionally mean and condescending:) Don't worry about it, just keep plugging away. Start with a pace of 3:00 or 2:55 and go for as long as you can, hopefully you can continue for an extended time before breaks are necessary. The video is first priority however. Once you know how to use your levers properly the paces you see now will be obsolete forever.

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Re: New erger. Advice wanted! :-) Pete Plan?

Post by Citroen » September 14th, 2010, 2:36 pm

unladen_swallow wrote:I know that the 38 minute time looks like I was rowing 3:27, but that time includes me having to stop and take breaks every 1500 meters or so and isn't what I was rowing continuously. Frankly, I think I was going too fast. My splits on sprints a few days ago were all a second or two around 2:45, with the last one 2:30something, and I wasn't far off that for the 5500. I just can't row that fast for that long right now.
You'll get more sensible numbers that don't make you look so very slow by programming the PM2(+)/PM3/PM4 for intervals with a predefined rest time (rather than an ad-hoc interval).

Main menu --> New workout --> Intervals:Distance --> Set 001500 on the top and 3:00 (rest time) in the middle.
Or
Main menu --> New workout --> Intervals: time --> Set 00:06:00 on the top and 3:00 (rest time) in the middle.

It'll count the resting metres and the rest time, but you'll get better detail from Main menu --> More options --> Memory (or Logcard) after your intervals workout is complete.

See http://www.concept2.com/us/service/moni ... wtouse.asp for more details on how to program the PM3/PM4
or http://www.concept2.com/us/service/moni ... level2.asp for PM2/PM2+

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Re: New erger. Advice wanted! :-) Pete Plan?

Post by Bob S. » September 14th, 2010, 3:31 pm

unladen_swallow wrote:
Citroen wrote:5500m in 38min is a 3:27.2 pace (time to complete 500m). That means you're doing no work, so unless you're an eighty year old, 5'2" tall, lightweight (<135lb) lady there's lots of room for improvement.

Read this: http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=38
and watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqVmMd7FdAA
I know that the 38 minute time looks like I was rowing 3:27, but that time includes me having to stop and take breaks every 1500 meters or so and isn't what I was rowing continuously. Frankly, I think I was going too fast. My splits on sprints a few days ago were all a second or two around 2:45, with the last one 2:30something, and I wasn't far off that for the 5500. I just can't row that fast for that long right now.

I don't think it's particularly helpful to compare me to a frail old lady. That was pretty mean. I just started and I'm trying to figure all this out, and insults aren't useful to me or anyone else. Honestly, I don't know why you would say something that condescending and horrid.
I agree that Citroen went too far in that one. (It caught me by surprise. It seemed out of character.) But don't let that stop you from checking out the references that were provided in that same message. They are definitely valuable sources.

The erg world has a language all its own, and that first URL is a good guide to it. Technique can make an enormous difference for beginners and the second URL is one of the better erg technique videos available.

Some typical errors are: 1) using inappropriate damper settings - or much better, drag factors (see the first URL). 2) avoiding unnecessarily high stroke rates. 3) rushing up the slide. 4) shooting the slide - that is allowing your hips to move away from the wheel faster than your shoulders. 5) tensing up on the recovery - it should be a time for relaxation. 6) starting to bend your arms at the elbows before your legs are straight on the drive. 7) the reverse on the recovery, i.e. bending at the knees before the arms have moved out straight from the body. 8) trying to do too much with the arms and back. Your legs have the strongest muscles and should provide most of the drive.

To get an idea of what others in your category (age, weight and gender) do, check out:

http://www.concept2.com/sranking03/rankings.asp

Stick with it. It is a very worthwhile exercise.

Bob S.

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Re: New erger. Advice wanted! :-) Pete Plan?

Post by chgoss » September 14th, 2010, 5:27 pm

Citroen is just grumpy at times (if by "at times" you mean "all the time"), but we still like him :D :D

I'm on the "just show up" plan.. its offered by RowPro (free evaluation copy at http://www.digitalrowing.com/Downloads/index.htm ). The essentials of the plan are straight forward. Sign up for 3-4 sessions a week, then just show up and row with everyone. :D

This plan works very well for folks (like me) that like to race, but hate to train. The great side effect of the "just show up" plan, is that you wont believe how much harder you push yourself.

ALL PACES are welcome, so dont worry about that.

hope to see ya online
-chad
52 M 6'2" 200 lbs 2k-7:03.9
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Re: New erger. Advice wanted! :-) Pete Plan?

Post by bloomp » September 14th, 2010, 5:54 pm

The only thing I can recommend more strongly than rowing with Chad is to just keep rowing. It will only feel easier and easier to pull a lower split. But definitely check out RowPro! It is worth the $100 (though I still need to purchase it).
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gregsmith01748
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Re: New erger. Advice wanted! :-) Pete Plan?

Post by gregsmith01748 » September 15th, 2010, 2:31 am

Hi,

I thought I'd chime in. I want to try to answer a couple of your questions and maybe give you a little advice. I'm pretty new at this as well. I've been at it for a year. I started rowing on the erg to lose weight. I was pretty confused when I started and had trouble figuring out how "good" I was at it. By using the forum and trying different stuff, I got a lot more comfortable and improved quickly. I also hit my weight loss goals over about 6 months and I'm now much more focused on just going faster.

1. About pacing. Everyone is different, but for women in your age range, the online rankings can give you an idea of how fast people can go. It is a pretty wide range.
90th percentile: 2:05/500
75th: 2:14
50th: 2:33
75th: 2:46
Keep in mind that this is a self selecting group, so the true range will be wider and most likely skewed slower than the people who take the trouble to actually post a result. Based on this, I think your pacing in your first 5000m were probably pretty damn good.

2. You asked about the relationship between your sprint splits and your splits in the 5000m workout. The rule of thumb is that when you double the distance add about 5 seconds to your splits, so if you did a 500m in 2:20, then you might expect that your splits during a steady 5000m row would be between 15 and 20 seconds longer or around 2:40. Your mileage will definitely vary, especially if you have strong muscles but have not worked on endurance much. In that case you would probably trail off faster than this rule of thumb would indicate.

3. The Pete Plan seems to ramp pretty steeply, and is definitely more for someone who is starting out, but not at all casual about committing to investing a fair amount of time and effort. I think the distances might be building too aggressively. I would not be shy about sticking with each week for 2 or 3 weeks instead of just plowing ahead.

4. How much do people row? Over the first 6 months that I was rowing, my average distance per week ramped up from around 20000 to about 60000. This happened for 2 reasons. FIrst, I started doing more rowing and way less other stuff like elliptical, running, etc. Second, I increased the distance per session, but more slowly than the pete plan seems to. I remember the first time I sat down and rowed 10000 meters. It was a couple months after I started and I felt like I had conquered the world. I was also so tired I could barely move the rest of the day. Now, I am rowing closer to 80K to 100K per week because I want to get good enough to actually compete, which is basically what the pete plan is whipping you into. Also, bear in mind that the Pete Plan is designed as your exclusive exercise program. If you are doing other stuff like an elliptical or running, or lifting weights, you'd want to back off of the numbers that he suggests.

Now for the advice part... Take this with a grain of salt since I am just reflecting my own experience and I don't claim to be an expert...

1. You might want to moderate your pace so that you can do it without needing any breaks. If you need to stop, what you are doing is turning it into an interval workout, which is valuable, but different (and less pleasant) than a longer, lower intensity row that is building your base endurance (and actually burning a higher percentage of fat calories than a more intense workout)

2. You want to sit down and do a 2K test. Basically row as fast as you can for 2K. This is a pretty standard distance which balances you speed and endurance. Over time you can redo the test and feel great about your improvement. It certainly was a motivator for me.

3. I found it hugely useful to go and get myself a heart rate monitor. I got a polar watch gizmo. By doing this and using the definitions of training bands from the UK concept 2 site (AN, AT, UT1, UT2), I was able to get a better understanding of just how hard to push during different sessions, and I could change pace before I blew a gasket and needed to stop. The key thing that it taught me was that I needn't kill myself in every workout in order to make progress.
Greg
Age: 55 H: 182cm W: 90Kg
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