The Two Types of Training

[Nosmo]

everyone else understands the reality that you are forever getting better than what you were..

Well no, rowers often regress. It takes constant work to avoid old habits reemerging, and they often do anyway. Hopefully they become easier to be aware of and get rid of each time.

[jliddil]

Rudyard Kipling
If

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or, being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on";

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch;
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!

[mikvan52]

SO: The Rich "ranger" answer to the following is that "nothing is wrong with my stroke". He's is right if he stay's focused on the erg.... And Tore Foss ergs with his knees outside his arms on the drive..(!).. "Nothing" is wrong with that either.. It got him a hammer didn't it? I stand corrected on that.

Notice the head on the drive... He now rows "well" but he still can't stop the backward jerking motion of his neck after 7 years of trying to eradicate it.

But what about taking such erg strokes and putting them in a boat?
FOR 5K
Rich is 10-15 seconds PER 500 METERS slower than me on the water while he is one second per 500m faster than me at 2k on the erg.
Now that RIch has purchased a top of the line 1x what will be his excuse for continuing his run of the mill times on the water?
I say it's his inferior form (not rate). His "WASP-i" (Water SPi) has no chance of even approaching his erg spi.

Rich you will need to come to terms with the fact that your self-portrayed / faultless erg form will not move a 1x at anything nearing 60's championship speed at any distance. There's nothing wrong with sticking to the erg (BTW)... it's good exercise and burns lots of fat
Maybe I am mistaken in thinking that you're looking forward to victories OTW (?)



Watch what happens to the bow of the boat as it gets closer to the camera.
The more surface area of hull that gets submerged, the higher the breaking effect on boat speed.

Many things about ranger-erg-form are pushing the bow down into the water.
You need coaching Rich. You cannot correct these things by yourself after nearly 10 years of erging w/improper form for the water.

[ranger]

If you have a base rate of 32 spm in your distance rowing, it is pretty easy to get to 36-40 spm in your 2K racing.

ranger

[ranger]

You cannot correct these things by yourself

They are already corrected, Mike.

You are looking at OTW videos that are two years old.

History.

ranger

[ranger]

Rich is 10-15 seconds PER 500 METERS slower than me on the water while he is one second per 500m faster than me at 2k on the erg.

I haven't raced yet on the erg, fully trained and rowing well.

When I do, at 60, I think I will pull a 2K that will be about seven or eight seconds better than you pull on the erg when you are 60.

You'll have trouble pulling 6:50.

I will be pushing under 6:20.

OTW?

Sure, I am still a novice.

But it is fun to learn.

And as you learn, you just get better and better.

The OTW rowing just makes the whole sport more fun.

I am enjoying it enormously.

Can't wait for my new boat (my Fluidesign "Windhover") to arrive!

ranger

[ranger]

Rich is 10-15 seconds PER 500 METERS slower than me on the water

At the moment, you don't have any idea how fast I am OTW, over any distance.

By the end of this OTW rowing season, this will probably change, though.

You can indeed go fast at low rates, but both on the erg and OTW, your inability to rate up is a severe liability.

There is nothing you can do about your poor aerobic capacity.

If you don't use it, you lose it.

Age takes its toll.

ranger

[ausrwr]

So, somehow from the videos of you rowing two years ago that proved you had no idea on how to move a boat, you've moved to having corrected everything that was wrong.

No coaching, no review? Just like you have on the ergo?

Balls. Your erg stroke is the same as it was two years ago.
Nothing you've done suggests that you are rowing on the water any differently. When you race on the water, I'll be proved right, and you wrong. Or when you post some video of you falling in in your Fluid.

Rich, you can't have it both ways. You're either still a novice after seven years of rowing, or you've fixed everything.
The first option means you're crap on the water. Seven years and you still haven't got better?
The second option means you're both an idiot and a liar. You're an idiot if you think you've fixed it - no-one is perfect - and a liar if you know you haven't fixed a thing and are just batting your lips.

[mikvan52]

You cannot correct these things by yourself

They are already corrected, Mike.

You are looking at OTW videos that are two years old.

History.

ranger

(auswr is right but I like seeing what I was writing in the meantime )

The OTW video says that the OTW was posted last year.

The erg video was posted a couple of months ago and shows identical form.
Notice particularly: Head jerk mid-drive; Hammering seat into the rail at the release; Arms/Back and Legs recover improperly.

And how would you know if they are corrected already if you don't have OTW time trials (not races!) to give you confirmation..?

The new boat won't do it for you... Your form will have to change. I'm not saying this to razz you.
Your boat speed is slow: You reported 2:05 at 26 spm this spring... It's easy for me to do 1:58 @ 24!
You claim to be more fit; we're both not sharpened...
Please explain the discrepancy.
My explanation is simple..................F>O>R>M>!

Here's another one for you to try OTW:

1:42 pace for 500m at a 31... How does your perfectly transportable form handle that? I can string together 50-60 strokes at 1:42. Can You?..................
(my! i think i hear crickets)

Don't bother to try weaseling out of it by saying how "fast" you are on the erg. That is a given. You are fast on the erg. But the way you get that speed is at the expense of creating slowness on the water. It's visible in your ERG VIDEO of two months ago... about the time you pulled your great 6:41....

It's water season now. Your boat's coming. You aren't going to be posting erg TT's by the end of the month. You're ready for your "20k a day" OTW. Class is out. What's next? Going to the UP in your old plaid shirt and slippers?

... I guess it's time for a tree to fall on you or some similar excuse. Target is also reporting a big run on "muscle grease"

[johnlvs2run]

This is starting to get really exciting! 7 days left in the season, and 9 events to rank. Figure 500m and 1k doubled-up on the final day, and a HM timed as part of a FM today, then the other events one-a-day in between. What time will you be doing the first event? Or have you, hoping against hope, already done it?!

I am looking forward to seeing the results.

[mikvan52]

What your prediction for his hour piece, John?
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><<><><><>><><><><>><><><><>

I'm waiting for his first water results.
I can be very patient.
Slowly it will sink into RIch's consciousness that if you purchase a $7,000.00 racing shell that it might be a good idea to eventually race....


Remember; I'm always here to bug you!

Sculling spi
I like to call it Water-spi or WASP-I for short!

What does (ranger's) erg spi of 11 get him in WASP-I ???

regards,

"wasp-i Mike"

[ranger]

The OTW video says that the OTW was posted last year.

No, check again.

Late June and early July, 2008.

ranger

[whp4]

I'm waiting for his first water results.
I can be very patient.
Slowly it will sink into RIch's consciousness that if you purchase a $7,000.00 racing shell that it might be a good idea to eventually race....

nah...that would prove it was a mistake! If he never races, he can continue to prattle on and on about how great he is without those pesky facts getting in the way. Let's just hope he doesn't start doing the same about his urging, instead of reporting all of his results like he does now

[ranger]

What's next?

My erging is now fine.

What's next?

Learning to row OTW.

As I learn to row well OTW, I will get faster and faster.

You will just get slower and slower.

Sounds fine to me.

Watch your back.

I'm gaining on you.



Mike, I don't have any big agenda for my OTW rowing.

I just enjoy it.

So I will be doing a lot of it.

I like to spend a lot of time doing things I enjoy.

ranger

[ranger]

Your form will have to change.

Change?

You can't change something you don't yet have.



Sure, I expect that even when I am rowing pretty well OTW, I'll have to change lots of things in order to maximize my boat speed.

Nothing wrong with that.

And it doesn't bear on my erging at all (or my erging on it).

The best OTW rowers are also the best ergers.

ranger