The Two Types of Training

[mikvan52]

Feb 7, 2006: I have just been learning a quality OTW stroke. That project is now complete.

June 12, 2008: My stroke is now a dream to use, entirely relaxed. –snip--so my erging and OTW rowing have merged perfectly. My stroke is the same both OTW and off.

April 5, 2010: I now row OTW pretty well, plenty well to be competitive with any 60s OTW rowers anywhere.

April 13, 2010: I am a novice OTW. --snip-- I am just learning to row.

I guess Rich was simply having a ginkoba-deprived /senior moment

Now he's even forgetting that he's the best

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..or perhaps it's just that the pesky water is getting in te way of his perfect stroke

Generally:
To everyone... I'd prefer if this forum would focus on good training... not so much on who is the superior rower.

When I said earlier today that I thought Rich could row a 1k OTW in 4:00 ... that wasn't a put down(!)
That's a good time for a 59 year-old and a stepping stone toward a descent 5k time a year from now.

I hope Rich can make the transfer to sculling well and fast... There is one caveat... => If he doesn't try to get sustained speed now, he'll lose the chance forever.... Neither he, nor I are "spring chickens" anymore.

Come on ranger: Have a NIKE moment... "Just do it!" We'll all love to see you "at the races". The duffers aren't cut-throat... and, it's easier to do this stuff together than all alone on a remote body of water by yourself.

[ranger]

If he doesn't try to get sustained speed now, he'll lose the chance forever

I don't believe that at all.

I can't see that I have lost any aerobic capacity or strength over the last decade.

And as it turns out, I didn't lose that much before my 50s, either.

Don't know why this is, but hey, if something given is good, you take what you get and don't ask questions.

ranger

[ranger]

a 1k OTW in 4:00

Sure, that's a great goal.

On the other hand, I don't really know how these things are going to play out for me, given my erging (and physical potential more general).

Whether good or bad, fast or slow, my "development" OTW might be a little unusual, I think.

ranger

[mikvan52]

It would be surprising to me if I ever run into a couple dozen 60-year-olds who can power down a course at some significant speed rating 34 spm (or whatever) for 1K in a 1x.

For a 60-year-old, at least, rowing OTW at high speeds for significant distances in a 1x requires a pretty challenging combination of full-body strength, quickness, skill, agility, balance, flexibility, endurance, aerobic capacity, etc.

No?

troll bait example: "high speeds"

Rich: What would you call "high speed" for a single?
I predict you will find out as I did when I started sculling racing this past decade... : Very little pie-hole breeze is devoted to those who sustain a high rate down a course and subsequently lose.
D'ya follow?

We can talk all we want about spi, mps, and other derivative measures.....
but when it come down to it, it's Point A to point B come wind, current, cold, or cover of darkness.

[mikvan52]

If he doesn't try to get sustained speed now, he'll lose the chance forever

I don't believe that at all.

I can't see that I have lost any aerobic capacity or strength over the last decade.

explain then why you cannot produce a 2k time to match your 6:28 when you were untrained at 52

"Not fully trained" is not a valid excuse!

[ranger]

Very little pie-hole breeze is devoted to those who sustain a high rate down a course and subsequently lose.

If I can sustain a high rate (e.g., 36-38 spm), I won't be losing.

But that won't be easy, given my lack of experience.

If there is one, the limitation will not be physical.

The limitation will be technical.

ranger

[ranger]

explain then why you cannot produce a 2k time to match your 6:28 when you were untrained at 52

"Not fully trained" is not a valid excuse!

At 55, I pulled 6:29, only partly trained, pretty much just what I pulled when I was 52.

Why was that?

Because I just went back to my old stroke and rowed badly.

When I did that, there was no decline in my 2K time at all.

The fiddling that I have been doing has been technical, not physical.

The decline with age is physical.

You are mixing apples and oranges.

Fully trained, rowing with my old stroke, I would still pull 6:28.

But I don't have any interest in that.

Why?

Been there, done that.

I have been trying to get better, both OTW and off.

Different project entirely.

Fully trained and rowing well, I will be much better than I was fully trained and rowing badly.

ranger

[mikvan52]

I hope Rich can make the transfer to sculling well and fast... There is one caveat... => If he doesn't try to get sustained speed now, he'll lose the chance forever.... Neither he, nor I are "spring chickens" anymore.

Rich doesn't believe that chances are lost with aging... (hmmmm)

Let me make this simple: Name one sculler who began racing in his 60's who subsequently won an age-group award in a major race* on uncorrected time.


* my definition of a major race: Two heats for 1k, 10 or more entrants in the same age-group for a head race.

[ranger]

Name one sculler who began racing in his 60's who subsequently won an age-group award in a major race* on uncorrected time.

There is a big technical burden on anyone who starts a sport late, especial a sport as technical as rowing.

If two rowers have the same physical capacities, but one is experienced and the other is not, then sure, the outcome of any competition between the two favors the one more experienced and therefore more technically competent.

But for the conclusion to hold, the condition must hold.

And I am not sure it holds here.

So far there isn't much indisputable evidence bearing on the issue, but there might be some soon.

ranger

[mikvan52]

explain then why you cannot produce a 2k time to match your 6:28 when you were untrained at 52

"Not fully trained" is not a valid excuse!

At 55, I pulled 6:29, only partly trained, pretty much just what I pulled when I was 52.

Why was that?

Because I just went back to my old stroke and rowed badly.

When I did that, there was no decline in my 2K time at all.

The fiddling that I have been doing has been technical, not physical.

The decline with age is physical.

You are mixing apples and oranges.

Fully trained, rowing with my old stroke, I would still pull 6:28.

But I don't have any interest in that.

Why?

Been there, done that.

I have been trying to get better, both OTW and off.

Different project entirely.

Fully trained and rowing well, I will be much better than I was fully trained and rowing badly.

ranger

"Technical" is it?
On the erg? Technical!!!
After a year or so of chain jerking... technical is out of the question: Great scores come from bad form too you know!
AND

The rest of the Bluster-babble doesn't do it. Rich

apples/oranges? hwt/lwt... You have NO TIMES that show IMPROVEMENT at the SAME WEIGHT

Plus : You said "NOW" not AGE 55!

You are a 6:41 lwt 2k erger NOW you were a 6:28 lwt 2k erger THEN.... You are not faster. You are slower.
You have a lower VO2 max and a slower max HR (tested or untested!)

Yes, you're just like the rest of us on "the curve". You've just refused to be tested.

When your in VT : Let's go to the lab together! I'll pay if you agree to share your data with me.


troll-on good buddy
all bait and no hook!

[mikvan52]

Name one sculler who began racing in his 60's who subsequently won an age-group award in a major race* on uncorrected time.

So far there isn't much indisputable evidence bearing on the issue, but there might be some soon.

ranger

I don't know if I'm following you: "The Issue"???

My evidence:
USROWING Masters nationals F and G age groups (have you bothered to check? (I doubt it)

Head of the Charles ?... Dig up the results and have a look... None of these people are novices, nor have they been exclusively sculling w/o racing in prior years

Why go on and on about stuff you haven't researched?

[ranger]

you never will be able to row a 1k at any race-level rating

I won't win OTW if I just row a 1K at "any race-level rating."

I will only win if, using my physical capacities, I row at an usually high rating for a 60-year-old, like a youngster.

If I can do that, though, I will be _very_ fast, regardless of other matters.

Rating down and making maximal use of technical expertise only wins if others are physically similar and can't rate up.

Young rowers don't rate down to win races.

If they didn't rate up, but others did, they would lose--every time.

I suspect that the best young OTW rowers do 1K at, what, 38-40 spm?

Mike is not going to beat them rating 30 spm, no matter how well he rows.

The younger rowers, by rating up, are a minute faster than Mike in 2K, thirty seconds faster in 1K.

15 seconds per 500m.

ranger

[Nosmo]

If I can sustain a high rate (e.g., 36-38 spm), I won't be losing.

Has anyone seen a 50+ yr old 1x sustain over 36 for a full 1K and win? I'm sure it has happened but aside from the start and finish, no one I know rates that high in a 1x. Doing 34 for the body is perfectly reasonable, but if you do 36 for the body what do you do, sprint at 39?
I have seen a womens 60+ 2x rate over 40 the whole way for a 1K but they did very badly. The nerves got to the novice stroke and she never settled. They should have rowed around 30 and certainly would have been faster at 24.

[oarsome wells]

i like Rangers enthusiasam for rowing...well done mate! Hope i am as fit at your age!


Mr Wells

[ranger]

You said "NOW" not AGE 55!

55 is three years later than 52.

58 is three years later than 55.

61 is three years later than 58.

Etc.

It is clear.

I am not declining much physically.

So I am trying to get better technically (so I can put this unusual physical capacity to better use).

I think I am now much better technically.

So this is my belief, and I won't give it up until I have convincing evidence to the contrary:

When I am fully trained and rowing well, this improved technique will have a significant effect on my erg times--across the board.

ranger