Wolverine....or just erg hard....always.

[ranger]

Even a relatively widely accepted one like 30'r20 to predict 2k performance is going to be a poor predictor if the person doing it never rows at r20!

No.

30'r20 predicts a 2K pretty exactly, no matter how you train.

For example, take someone like Rocket Roy, who for reasons of health and well being (a tennis elbow) doesn't row much 20 spm at all.

Nonetheless, Roy rows 30'r20 in about 1:51, which predicts his 2K pb exactly.

Back in 2003, I only really rowed 20 spm in a serious way once, to see what I could do for 60min.

I pulled 60'r20 @ 1:52.

That translates to about 1:49 for 30min.

That predicts my 2K pb exactly.

ranger

[ranger]

I rowed a 5k @ 1:45 in 2003 and now I have rowed a 5k @ 1:41

Congratulations.

That's a great improvement.

Clearly, you are improving your fitness.

Break the WR in your age and weight division by four seconds, as I have.

Then keep training as you are training.

See if you can get a similar improvement over the five years following that.

Bet you would have some difficulty.

Why?

You couldn't improve by improving your fitness.

Your fitness would be maximal.

How old are you?

What do you weigh?

To my knowlege, other than me, in open competition, no male WR-holder who is over 40 has ever improved at all, much less by 3-5 seconds per 500m.

And I only improved (a couple of seconds) because I got a little better technically.

ranger

[ranger]

Which events or pieces, exactly, have you rowed demonstrating this 4s/500m improvement?

Just short events demonstrating improvements in stroking power at the moment:

500mr30, 1Kr24, 2Kr20, etc.

Last year, I pulled _huge_ pbs on these (by 4-6 seconds per 500m).

I am now doing distance rowing.

More trials to come this spring and summer, this time on the distance events: FM, HM, 60min, 10K, 30min, 6K, and 5K.

Then I will do standard sharpening workouts that predict 2K in the fall.

First up is the FM.

If I can get a FM done @ 1:48, the target I am training for, it will be an improvement of 6 seconds per 500m.

My FM pb is 1:54/2:40.

ranger

[ranger]

If you row badly to begin with then this is entirely reasonable.

No 50s ergers have ever rowed well.

So the context is clear.

All of them have rowed badly.

In fact, no ergers much over 40 have rowed well.

ranger

[whp4]

I rowed a 5k @ 1:45 in 2003 and now I have rowed a 5k @ 1:41

Congratulations.

That's a great improvement.

Clearly, you are improving your fitness.

Break the WR in your age and weight division by four seconds, as I have.

Then keep training as you are training.

Do you read your students' papers this carelessly? I was giving you an example of how you might demonstrate that you had actually improved. Even though you've been unable to disclose a 5k time for the last few years ("oh, those trial results are only for the USIRDS coaches' use"), it is a common enough piece and the likelihood is high that you could produce log entries from 5 years ago and the present that demonstrated your claimed improvement of 4s/500m over identical pieces, because you would have ranked the 5k PB in the past. You could if you actually had an improvement, that is. As for your restricted rate short pieces, given that you never spoke of them before last year and they are not ranking events, claims that you did them years ago will be disregarded due to a lack of credible documentation.

So, one more time: which pieces from the pantheon of standard ranking pieces did you do in the past and in the present which illustrate your claimed improvement? For example, a PB in 2003 of 5K @ 1:45 and an IND_V piece from the last year showing a new PB of 5K @ 1:41 would serve to illustrate that your efforts had indeed produced the stated improvement. Comparisons of different pieces, no matter how strongly you believe they are equivalent (2k vs. 30r20 pace comparisons, for example), or anything involving restricted rates, will be summarily rejected.

[ranger]

which piecesp

I just told you which.

So what can you do for 1Kr24?

What can you do for 500r30?

What can you do for 2Kr20?

And when you have broken that 2K WR by 4 seconds, we will be happy to hear about your further progress, as you have been hearing about mine.

The scores on the above pieces were _huge_ pbs, years after I broke the WR in my age and weight division.

Nice progress!

ranger

[whp4]

which piecesp

I just told you which.

500m free rate
1000m free rate
5000m free rate
6000m free rate
10000m free rate
21097m free rate
42195m free rate
30:00 free rate
60:00 free rate

Any of them? They are the only ones that count. We already know that your 2k got slower, not faster, so I didn't list it above. I suppose if you've rowed 100k at the claimed 4s/500m improvement over your old mark, I'd want to hear about that. Even the 4 minute piece for kids would be of interest, providing you ranked one back in 2003, allowing us to compare.

So what can you do for 1Kr24?

What can you do for 500r30?

What can you do for 2Kr20?

My performance is completely irrelevant when the topic is your claim to improvement. You are the one claiming the improvement, we just want to see some evidence. Put up or shut up. Too much to ask of you, I know. I'll try once more. Which of the distances/times in my list above of the standard ranking pieces can you document having improved your PB by 4s/500m? You do have to have rowed the improved PB, not simply suggest that your time for some other piece makes it a foregone conclusion.

And when you have broken that 2K WR by 4 seconds, we will be happy to hear about your further progress, as you have been hearing about mine.

We'd be happy to hear about it once you break any WR record by 4 seconds, but you haven't managed to do so. And as previously mentioned, it would be more impressive if someone hadn't promptly obliterated your WR from the books. There's also that pesky weigh-in business where you were allowed to weigh in long before your race in a fashion that is no longer accepted practice at any event where a WR can be set. The flameouts at nearly every lightweight race you've rowed since suggest that you were lucky to be able to row your best rows at a time when you could get away with that.

The scores on the above pieces [1Kr24, 500r30, 2Kr20] were _huge_ pbs, years after I broke the WR in my age and weight division.

Nice progress!

If you say so. But as they are neither competition events nor ranking events, who cares, or even believes you? You haven't provided any evidence that you had PBs in those events that were anything special to begin with, so that you claim to have improved them is really no more impressive than the natural improvement of every beginning rower who sticks with the program for more than about a week. If you want to restrict the ratings you use when rowing, be my guest, but the standards for comparison will still be the open, unrestricted rate marks. Good thing your anchor hauling prowess is so well developed!

No 50s ergers have ever rowed well.

And despite not rowing well, plenty of them have rowed faster than you ever have. I'm having a little trouble reconciling that with your claims to row well.

[ranger]

They are the only ones that count.

No, if you are interested in improving, even after your times have pateaued, as mine have, and you have broken world records multiple times, _everything_ counts, including lots of things that aren't rowing pieces.

If you have other interests, as in your case, a more narrow range of things might count.

Good luck with it.

ranger

[ranger]

My performance is completely irrelevant

No it isn't, if you are giving advice about rowing on this forum but don't know what you're doing, or are asking me about various things that you have no conception of because of your own level of achievement.

ranger

[ranger]

We'd be happy to hear

Who is the _we_ here, and what is the relevance of hearing to training?

I am doing what will make me better.

That's the only thing that matters.

I am reporting how I am getting this done.

Given that no male WR-holder has ever gotten any better at all, it should be of interest to everyone.

If it's not, so it goes.

If it's not of interest to you, then that is your affair.

So be it.

Good luck with your rowing.

If someone has better ideas about how to get done what I am trying to do, I would be glad to hear them, but because no one has ever done what I am doing, I am naturally skeptical.

For example, Mike C. used the WP to set a WR, but from then on his times have steeply declined.

He hasn't been able to use the WP in order to continue to improve, even though he is a WR-holder and aging.

So, I assume that Mike doesn't have any ideas that will help me.

If he did, he'd use them himself!

On the other hand, if I do indeed get better, I assume that Mike might try what I have done, given that I will have succeeded where he couldn't.

This situation will be especially striking if, at 58 years old, I pull 6:18 or under, what Mike did when he was 40 to set the 40s lwt WR.

ranger

[ranger]

I'm having a little trouble reconciling that with your claims to row well.

No need to be confused.

Rowing well is 13 SPI for a lightweight; 16 SPI for a heavyweight.

For a lightweight, ideal rowing is 15 SPI.

For a heavyweight, ideal rowing 18 SPI.

ranger

[ranger]

If you say so.

With respect to my rowing, yes, exactly.

I am just reporting what I am doing.

And it is going _very_ well.

ranger

[Micromonkey]

Even a relatively widely accepted one like 30'r20 to predict 2k performance is going to be a poor predictor if the person doing it never rows at r20!

No.

30'r20 predicts a 2K pretty exactly, no matter how you train.

ranger

No it doesn't, my 30r20 PB is 1:58.8 which predicts 7:02, my 'actual' 2k PB is 7:12.7

Too many other physiological and mental factors for any predictor to be accurate.

[ranger]

my 30r20 PB is 1:58.8 which predicts 7:02, my 'actual' 2k PB is 7:12.7

Then I would guess that your training is not balanced.

You need to do more hard UT1 and AT rows.

Do you do a lot of hard 5Ks and 60' rows, etc.?

One or two a week?

If you don't, the problem is not "physiological and mental factors."

ranger

[Micromonkey]

my 30r20 PB is 1:58.8 which predicts 7:02, my 'actual' 2k PB is 7:12.7

Then I would guess that your training is not balanced.

You need to do more hard UT1 and AT rows.

Do you do a lot of hard 5Ks and 60' rows, etc.?

One or two a week?



ranger

Loads of them Ranger, and without breaks, especially during the racing off season, presently doing Eddie's Fletchers FM prog which includes sessions like 3x30', 2' rest at UT1 and AT HRs.

Pleased don't go into telling me how to train, you're credentials and results certainly don't match the results my coach has produced for many people over the years, and he know what he's talking about.

I'll remind you of what you wrote
"30'r20 predicts a 2K pretty exactly, no matter how you train."

Make your mind up!