Training to Run a Marathon -- Minimum Running?

[gcanyon]

My daughter loves running. I much prefer rowing. In a weak moment, I agreed to run next year's L.A. Marathon with her.

Obviously I have to run some before trying the marathon. I ran a 5k three weeks ago, and my muscles were very sore for several days after because of the shock impact running causes. I ran three miles two weeks ago, and that wasn't nearly so bad.

So what's the minimum amount of running I can likely get away with in training?

I'm thinking one run a week, increasing in length until I'm doing 10 miles each week before the marathon, with maybe a 12 or 15 mile run thrown in once a month.

gc

[RowtheRockies]

gcanyon,

Ancho may chime in on this or you might send him a PM as I know he recently did a marathon on two days or running per week but I believe at least one of his long runs a week was considerably longer than 10 miles. While I have never attempted a marathon (since starting to row) I think 10 miles would not be enough. It also depends on how pleasurable an experience you want to have and pain you want to experience during the marathon, what general physical shape you are in and other factors.

What was your time for the 5K you did? There is a huge difference between 10 miles and 26 miles. Off of 10 miles once a week, you could probably suffer through 20 miles but I can tell you the last 6 miles of a marathon is a beast. If you are not properly trained for it, you have a pretty high chance of a DNF. My background before starting to row in December was running. The minimum long run I would put in for a marathon was 20 miles. I currently row 4 days a week and run 2. Both runs are 8 miles and I would not even consider running a marathon off that or 10 miles for that matter.

I don't want to rain on your parade but if you have not RUN a marathon before you can't understand what a toll it can take on your body even if you are averaging 60 miles a week.

[johnlvs2run]

Running one 5k in three weeks is not going to help you much for a marathon.

You'd be better off going out twice a week and alternating running and walking for two hours. Or go 90 minutes one day and 2 hours the other, with either 2 or 3 days easy in between. The speeds of the running and walking should merge in together, as you are going for distance and not speed. However, this gives you more speed for the marathon.

On the easy days, just walk and jog a little for 10 or 20 minutes to flush out your system. You could take off on those days but it's much better to do even a little bit instead of just nothing.

For example:

Tuesday: 90 minutes running and walking
Saturday: 120 to 130 minutes running and walking
Other days: 10 to 20 minutes very easy

Start easy each time you do the long runs, and build through the distance.
Record your distance and pace each time.

You should be able to complete the distance reasonably well this way.

I used to run two or three runs of two hours each week, and got third at the district 50km championships on a 90 degree day with no water, so this works very well.

[c2jonw]

I've run one marathon, and the amount of work you put in before is inversly related to how much it's going to hurt during and after the marathon. That said, the program I used was what I would consider a minimum plan to get a reasonably comfortable experience.
* 2-3 runs of 5-8 miles during the week. These should be at a moderate pace or with some pickups to work on the leg speed a bit.
* On the weekend is your long steady run, which increases in length by 1 mile every week until you get to 21 miles with two weeks left to the marathon. So ideally you start your training about 13 weeks in advance with the long run being 10 miles, and add a mile a week. The long run is mainly for gaining endurance, but you should also try eating and drinking during this run, stopping to take a leak, figuring out what to wear and all those other little details. The last two weeks are tapering and maintaining fitness, so you go into the marathon rested and confident. Don't use new shoes or try new food the day of the marathon, and start out at what feels like a ridiculously slow pace!! My 2 cents.......C2JonW

[gcanyon]

gcanyon,

Ancho may chime in on this or you might send him a PM as I know he recently did a marathon on two days or running per week but I believe at least one of his long runs a week was considerably longer than 10 miles. While I have never attempted a marathon (since starting to row) I think 10 miles would not be enough. It also depends on how pleasurable an experience you want to have and pain you want to experience during the marathon, what general physical shape you are in and other factors.

What was your time for the 5K you did? There is a huge difference between 10 miles and 26 miles. Off of 10 miles once a week, you could probably suffer through 20 miles but I can tell you the last 6 miles of a marathon is a beast. If you are not properly trained for it, you have a pretty high chance of a DNF. My background before starting to row in December was running. The minimum long run I would put in for a marathon was 20 miles. I currently row 4 days a week and run 2. Both runs are 8 miles and I would not even consider running a marathon off that or 10 miles for that matter.

I don't want to rain on your parade but if you have not RUN a marathon before you can't understand what a toll it can take on your body even if you are averaging 60 miles a week.

I should have mentioned -- I did a marathon on the erg some time back, and I have no problem doing that. I know that's not the same thing as running a marathon. I point it out to say that my goal is to do the vast majority of my cardiovascular training on the erg, and use the running only as necessary to fill in the gaps.

Several people have said that I should be running 20 miles at a stretch just before the marathon. To that I have to say that if I've already run 20 miles, where's the mystery in attempting 26?

My time for the 5K was 29 minutes. It was the first time I had run in over two years.

My second run (two weeks ago) was 3 miles (slightly shorter than 5K) and my time for that was 26 minutes. I was significantly less sore after that.

I'm planning to run 5 miles this weekend (assuming tomorrow's marathon on the erg doesn't kill me first). I'll post the time for that when it's done.

Thanks for the advice,

Geoff

[gcanyon]

Running one 5k in three weeks is not going to help you much for a marathon.

I was planning on doing a little more than that

There's most of a year between now and race day -- I plan to use all of it.

You'd be better off going out twice a week and alternating running and walking for two hours. Or go 90 minutes one day and 2 hours the other, with either 2 or 3 days easy in between. The speeds of the running and walking should merge in together, as you are going for distance and not speed. However, this gives you more speed for the marathon.

On the easy days, just walk and jog a little for 10 or 20 minutes to flush out your system. You could take off on those days but it's much better to do even a little bit instead of just nothing.

For example:

Tuesday: 90 minutes running and walking
Saturday: 120 to 130 minutes running and walking
Other days: 10 to 20 minutes very easy

Start easy each time you do the long runs, and build through the distance.
Record your distance and pace each time.

You should be able to complete the distance reasonably well this way.

I used to run two or three runs of two hours each week, and got third at the district 50km championships on a 90 degree day with no water, so this works very well.

Thanks for the advice. I'm just planning on finishing. My time isn't so important. I'll set a goal based on what I'm doing just before the race.

[gcanyon]

I've run one marathon, and the amount of work you put in before is inversly related to how much it's going to hurt during and after the marathon. That said, the program I used was what I would consider a minimum plan to get a reasonably comfortable experience.
* 2-3 runs of 5-8 miles during the week. These should be at a moderate pace or with some pickups to work on the leg speed a bit.
* On the weekend is your long steady run, which increases in length by 1 mile every week until you get to 21 miles with two weeks left to the marathon. So ideally you start your training about 13 weeks in advance with the long run being 10 miles, and add a mile a week. The long run is mainly for gaining endurance, but you should also try eating and drinking during this run, stopping to take a leak, figuring out what to wear and all those other little details. The last two weeks are tapering and maintaining fitness, so you go into the marathon rested and confident. Don't use new shoes or try new food the day of the marathon, and start out at what feels like a ridiculously slow pace!! My 2 cents.......C2JonW

Thanks for the input. Everyone is telling me I need to run more even if I'm working on the erg. (sigh) I'm hoping to avoid that.

I can't imagine doing anything more than 15 miles before the marathon. It's just in my nature, I guess:

-- the first time I rode a bicycle 60 miles, I had never ridden more than 30 miles.
-- the first time I rode a bicycle 120 miles a day for two days, I had never ridden more than 60 miles. This was about a month after the ride above, and in between the two I never rode more than 5 miles at a stretch.
-- the first time I rode a bicycle more than 100 miles a day repeatedly, I found out my knees didn't like that This was about two months after the 120 mile rides.
-- the first time I rowed a marathon on the erg, I had never rowed more than about 20k. I did it on a whim -- sat down one night and decided to enter 42195 instead of 10k.

I don't think I'm a glutton for punishment. It just doesn't hurt that much. Certainly not as much as a 2K. I like distance.

In any case, thanks for the advice. I was hoping there might be someone on the list who disliked running as much as I do, but had to do it anyway. I guess I'm going to be the oddball.

(I don't really dislike running, I just vastly prefer erging)

[johnlvs2run]

Several people have said that I should be running 20 miles at a stretch just before the marathon. To that I have to say that if I've already run 20 miles, where's the mystery in attempting 26?

I agree with you.

Running 20 miles at one time in training is too tiring, unless it's a very slow pace, like an all day hike.

At anywhere close to marathon pace, 20 milers are okay if you run the marathon in 2:05. Then the 20 miles will only take you an hour and 40 minutes or so. Otherwise, just run an hour and 40 minutes to 2 hours.

I found that keeping my runs at 2 hours or less, served me well for running 26, 31 and 50 miles in a race, and you recover more quickly this way, so you can improve and then keep doing it again and again.

[RowtheRockies]

gcanyon,

I'm not really trying to be critical. If you get up to 15 miles once a week by the time the marathon rolls around, you probablly can "gut out" the marathon but it will be nothing like erging a marathon or even riding 100 miles on a bike with no previous riding. It is the accumulation of the pounding of 3X your bodyweight over 26.2 miles that kills you. In a print interview, Lance Armstrong talked about how he went on a 3 mile run with Sheryl Crow and could hardly walk for a few days. This is a man that spends hours on end daily on the bike. Probably the worlds greatest aerobic engine but his muscles and ligaments were not used to pounding.

With the limited training you are proposing my prediction is that you will end up walking a significant portion of the last half of the race (nothing wrong with that) and will experience pain and exhaustian that you have never known.

But...I sincerely hope you prove me wrong and wish you the best of luck. You sound determined!!!

[runr/rowr]

Gc,
I have run several marathons, and it is the pounding that takes its toll on the body. Especially running on asphalt and or concrete. The good news is, your body can be very adaptable as long as you go slowly. there is a program that you will find thru runners world magazine. that is put on by a gentlemen named jeff galloway, and his program will suit you just fine. that is of course, all you want to accomplish is to finish a marathon. you have almost a year to train, for L.A thats alot of time to adapt. Just be thankful your daughter didnt pick boston. thats a little different.
runr/rowr

[gcanyon]

It is the accumulation of the pounding of 3X your bodyweight over 26.2 miles that kills you. In a print interview, Lance Armstrong talked about how he went on a 3 mile run with Sheryl Crow and could hardly walk for a few days. This is a man that spends hours on end daily on the bike. Probably the worlds greatest aerobic engine but his muscles and ligaments were not used to pounding.

But...I sincerely hope you prove me wrong and wish you the best of luck. You sound determined!!!

I had exactly the same experience as Lance Armstrong. Okay, not the winning the Tour seven times, nor dating a rock star. But I was fascinated by my experience running a 5K. I did 10K a day on the erg for 26 days in March without much trouble, but one 5K running, and I was sore for half a week. That's definitely what I'm looking out for.

But the second run was much smoother than the first, and I was much less sore, and only sore for a day.

I'm planning to work my way up and see how the soreness goes. My assumption is that if I keep my cardiovascular system in good shape by rowing, if 10 miles doesn't hurt, 26 miles won't hurt much. I'll be sure to let everyone know how that works out

I don't think I'm very determined, by the way. I just have a very good long-distance body. I don't work very hard at it, genetics were kind. I'll never be very fast or strong, but what I can do, I can do pretty much until I get hungry. Feed me and who knows what the limit is?

Anyway, as I said, I plan to row a marathon tomorrow morning and run 5 miles on Sunday. I'll report back after that.

[Hal Morgan]

contact Joe Henderson.

[gcanyon]

I finished a rowing marathon yesterday morning. I definitely need to work on my biceps. By 30,000 meters, I had no ability to pull hard, and there was no snap at the end of my stroke. I lost about 10 seconds off my pace.

Anyway, back to running -- I went out this morning to run, and managed 1.5 miles before pulling a cramp in my calf. Man those hurt!

So I definitely know that I won't be rowing long distance the week before trying the running marathon.

We'll see how I do next week.

[ancho]

FYI:
I was a competitive rower until 1987. I didn't do hardly anything but some karate and v e r y occasional running and cycling from 1987 to january 2005, when I started rowing again.
In februarry and march 2005, I had some serious cramps on my calfs, which kept me from running for several weeks.
And I "seriousely" started preparing the marathon, which I ran on november 27th, in september.
So I think you have enough time to prepare your marathon and finish it successfully.
And I think you are right when you say "it just doesn't hurt that much". My first rowing marathon was MUCH tougher!
Just a few thoughts:
You should try at least one half marathon, (its fun!), and reach the "uncomfortable" zone at least once.
Try to get rid of as much excessive weight as possible the weeks before your big run (I went down to 81kg).
Take special care choosing your shoes and socks, and rest of the outfit...
Think about drinking during the race and practice it.
Think about what you eat and drink the weeks before the race.
When hitting the wall (if you do), just follow the bloke before you. He will be as tired as you, if not more!

Happy (crazy) running!

[johnlvs2run]

what's the minimum amount of running I can likely get away with in training?

I think the minimum would be to go out once a week and walk for 3 hours, than gradually toss in some running so your times get a bit faster each week but keeping within yourself.

I saw a guy named Jim Zachor win the national 50 mile track championships one year, just missing the national record by a few seconds. He said his training was to run 50 miles each Sunday. He ran a 7 mile loop and stopped briefly after each 7 mile loop for a drink. On Wednesdays he ran 20 miles, and the other days only 12 miles. That's 130 miles a week. He wore a cool shirt that had "I'd rather eat worms than deplete" on the back of it.

Ken Moffit was second. The next year, Moffit won and ran a faster time than had Zachor.