Not getting much force from my legs

[dontmindsarno]

I've been using a concept2 for about a month now, I set the drag between 4-5 and do a 2k row. Everyone says the legs should be doing most of the work, but I seem to get better results when I engage the back/arms a bit more. My form is still fine I just have my arms/back do more of the work once my knees extend/lock fully.

As an example, here is a picture of my typical force curve. It seems a bit flat and more dragged out. When I engage my arms more I can get 2:45/500m instead of 3:00/500m.

What am I doing wrong? Do I just have weak legs (which is entirely possible, I'm not a big dude and I'm mostly sedentary).

[hjs]

The itself does nothing, its us the rowers who should put in the energy. The main reason you are not feeling much is your pace. Don,t know your stats, age, height etc, but you simpy go to slow.
If I should compare your rowing to walking you are easy taking a stroll, not jogging or let alone running.

That said, the idea that rowing is mostly legs is not true, the back and arms certainly do a good bit of work, all force goes through them.
For now your number one focus could be really try to put in work into the flywheel. Try to start “jogging” instead of “walking”

[mitchel674]

That is an interesting force curve. It's good that you are even looking at the force curve to figure out the problem. You can use it to correct the weakness in your drive. There are some good videos online.

I like to think of the first part of the drive as an explosive push off the machine with my legs. This strong push is what gets the force curve started. You need to work on getting the strong first push with you legs followed by back and arms. Thinking about this sequence will help you.


This video really gets into it well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiQ0Mqlk_Lo

Your stroke is also likely too slow given the length of that force curve.

[ampire]

Set the damper lever lower. Try setting it at 3 or 4 instead of 4 or 5. Going in the more options you can display drag factor, which is more precise than the damper lever, you should aim for a drag factor of 100 so you learn to pull hard and fast. Lower drag factor means a faster pull which gives a taller initial force curve.

Your force curve looks flat because you aren't pulling hard and fast enough. Increase your pace (split per 500M) to 2:30 while keeping your rate (Stroke Per Minute) at 20 S/M and don't let either of these two parameters increase or decrease for a few minutes, try to hold them consistent each stroke, and then see what your force curve looks like. Try filming yourself and then compare with https://youtu.be/VE663Kg0c00.

Look at this video as well for guidance on leg drive. https://youtu.be/JLyOyWls9_Y

[Neorticros]

As you think, the curve shows you are doing something (or quite a few things) wrong.

Close your eyes and row unstrapped. Just worry about rowing without falling off. That will fix a lot of things, including pace, too high spm and engagement of the legs. Hopefully you'll figure out quite a few things.

I'll give you an example. I can't swim. If I wanted to participate in a race tomorrow, my time would be better if I didnt' put my head down the water as I swim. That's because I can't swim properly and I feel more comfortable swiming with my head up.

Now if the race was in 6 months. I could have 2 different aproaches:
(a) Train hard for 6 months swimming with my head up, just harder.
(b) Learn how to swim and breath correctly and as I get the good technique going, worry about doing it harder. Plenty of time till the race.

Longterm option (b) is what is going to help you. Think about it. Do you have a race tomorrow?

[nates]

I find if I'm rowing to a HR cap, I have trouble getting power out of my legs. Like if I'm trying to lower my output, the arms end up doing more work than the legs. Alternatively, if I try to get a strong leg drive, my heart rate starts up into the UT1 territory.

[Cyclist2]

I find if I'm rowing to a HR cap, I have trouble getting power out of my legs. Like if I'm trying to lower my output, the arms end up doing more work than the legs. Alternatively, if I try to get a strong leg drive, my heart rate starts up into the UT1 territory.

Sounds like a technique problem. The drive should be a smooth blend of legs, back, arms. True, you can emphasize one part of this over the others, but for a HR capped piece using the whole stroke, it should be smooth. Look at your force curve, like the OP posted. That will tell you if your stroke is balanced and smooth. The OP's force curve doesn't have a bad shape, it's just not very powerful and he's drawing the stroke out very slowly. The force curve that mitchel674 posted emphasizes the legs - steep initially then even down to the finish. Check the C2 site for info on the force curve.

[ampire]

I find if I'm rowing to a HR cap, I have trouble getting power out of my legs. Like if I'm trying to lower my output, the arms end up doing more work than the legs. Alternatively, if I try to get a strong leg drive, my heart rate starts up into the UT1 territory.

Sounds like a technique problem. The drive should be a smooth blend of legs, back, arms. True, you can emphasize one part of this over the others, but for a HR capped piece using the whole stroke, it should be smooth. Look at your force curve, like the OP posted. That will tell you if your stroke is balanced and smooth. The OP's force curve doesn't have a bad shape, it's just not very powerful and he's drawing the stroke out very slowly. The force curve that mitchel674 posted emphasizes the legs - steep initially then even down to the finish. Check the C2 site for info on the force curve.

Exactly he just isn't pulling hard enough and fast enough (on the drive, not on the recovery). If he aimed at lowering the split from 3:00 to 2:30 or 2:00 it would probably look a lot like DDR style curve.

[jackarabit]

14 spm is the last cat out of the bag. Muscle enlistment and sequence aside, the OP will need to do his thing at a higher frequency to optimize pace and delay fatigue. Better get that rate to 17-18 minimum soon, dontmind.

The bike gearing analogy may help. You use a tall gear that you can’t effectively turn. Reduce drag factor to reduce rate of flywheel deceleration and then see if you can move quickly enuf on drive to produce some vertical in that force curve. Here’s another analogy: If you wanted to ring the gong at the carney, would you hit the peg hard and fast or merely press on it with the head of the maul?

[happycamper515]

How would you relate peak force to this issue? I too feel like I should be getting better numbers for the effort and power I exert. I get sustained peak force of about 100-110 when I'm giving maximum effort.

[Dangerscouse]

Do you mean watts when you say 100-110?

If you don't do weightlifting you can regularly do bodyweight squats / split squats & lunges to build up power in your legs.

Another way of engaging your legs more in the drive is to focus on pushing more with your left for one stroke, then your right leg for one and then both for two. You will build a mind body connection that will help to embed the need to really push with your legs.

[happycamper515]

Peak force is one of the stats on the ergdata app. I'm guessing it's an absolute measurement so regardless of body type two people with similar peak force numbers should have similar 500m assuming both maintain those levels throughout the entire 500m.

[Dangerscouse]

I have never paid any attention to peak force on Ergdata it's all about pace or watts imo.

[ampire]

Peak force is one of the stats on the ergdata app. I'm guessing it's an absolute measurement so regardless of body type two people with similar peak force numbers should have similar 500m assuming both maintain those levels throughout the entire 500m.

This isn't that useful for comparing athletes, here are two examples why:
Example 1:
Consider two athletes, both with the same strength level, and the same height, but one has poor technique. They might have the same peak force (highest point on the y axis of the force curve) but the one with better technique goes further each stroke because he is better at applying a higher average force over the same time. His force curve would appear more rectangular while the one with poor technique would have a more triangular force curve.
Example 2:
Consider two athletes, one who is short and one who is tall, but both have very good technique and the same strength level.
They might have the same peak force and the same average force, and a similar looking force curve, but the taller one's drive length is much greater so the duration in time that the force is applied is longer. Therefore, that taller athlete would go further with each stroke. His force curve would be longer on the x axis even if it has the same average and peak force.

Watts is more useful for comparison because as a unit of power, it reflects the work performed (as force applied to the fan) over a unit of time. Pace and watts are different ways at looking at the same metric on these machines, pace is determined from watts. The ergometer estimates watts. From that estimate, it converts into pace.

pace = ³√(2.80/watts)
watts = 2.80/pace³

Stroke Power Index (SPI=Watts/SPM) would be more useful for comparison because it answers the question how powerful is one athlete versus another at the same stroke rate.

[jackarabit]

The late Bob Spenger always advocated an ideal OTE force curve which he called the left-leaning haystack. Initial explosive enlistment of powerful leg muscles presents as a nearly vertical component at the beginning of that ideal force curve. This is the squat jump-like movement that synchs the velocity of chain travel to flywheel velocity (engages the clutch bearing). The curve then transitions to a more gradual positive slope and to a “peak” force which can be the blunt point of an arrowhead or the max vertical of a rounded hump dependent on whether legs and back contributions are produced concurrently or discretely. However one interprets and evaluates the utility of differential application of force, total force produced (the area under the curve) also matters.