Heart rate vs Power

[alexp::c2]

Hi all,

I just started training on a concep2 rower (model D) at home *(about me) and I really like the heart rate vs. power chart analysis as explained e.g. here: https://www.cyclinganalytics.com/blog/2 ... ower-chart

So far I
a) copy the mean power and heart rate per session over to a spread sheet and there calculate power/(Hr x kg). I think this is a fantastic way of tracking the fitness level development over time

b) download the per stroke data to make a plot comparable to the linked one per session. This gives an impression about how 'nonlinear' the power/hr curve is and how this develops over time

Now I wonder if others find this useful, too.

I'd love to see this plots as part of the online logbook, such that one does not need to download/plot the session data every time.
What do you think?

Cheers
Alex



*about me:
I was a long-distance triathlete more than 10 years ago (shame on me for giving this up). Job and family eat up my time. I was doing some cycling and a bit of running but had problems with the shoulder when cycling and hip/knees when running -> the last 3/4 year i did almost nothing and my fitness has gone nuts.
Therefore I finally decided to get a rower and carefully increase training intensity. So far, knees/hips & shoulder are ok when rowing.

[Carl Watts]

Very interesting but the first thing i notice is the heartrates are pretty low for the power output.

Your not going to get a curve the same as this for the rower its the main reason why Zwift are having problems simply integrating the rower in with the cyclists and making it an even playing field. I suspect the only solution is to separate out the final results into a rower category to avoid upsetting the cyclists.

Ergdata already gives you a nice plot on the c2 online logbook as it relates to a rower if you use it. Rowing is a totally different exercise and doesn't translate well to cycling when trying to come up with a direct comparison but im sure a formula could be derived by putting a group of cyclists on a rower and look at HR vs Power.

[gregsmith01748]

Hi Alex,

If you are into analyzing the data generated from rowing, you might want to check out rowsandall.com.

It provides tools to generate plots like the one you posted along with the ability to create critical power curves.

Check out this article describing how to get started. https://analytics.rowsandall.com/2017/ ... e-numbers/

[alexp::c2]

Hi,
thanks for your replies.
@Carl: my intention is not to compare against cyclists. It was only a good article explaining the heart rate vs. power plot. I only would like to compare (my) rowing against rowing.

Ergdata already gives you a nice plot on the c2 online logbook as it relates to a rower if you use it

Yes I do, an therefore all necessary data would be ther. Currently its a plot Hr and power vs. strokes.
It would be straight forward to implement the Hr vs. power plot...

@greg: the rowsandall.com looks cool. They state its 'free' data and analysis. I need to check that. Do you know is it really free? How about data usage / privacy?

Alex

[gregsmith01748]

Hi,
There are two levels of use, one is completely free, and the other is an annual subscription. The annual subscription enables additional analysis tools. Here’s a link to a description of the difference.

https://rowsandall.com/rowers/paidplans/

Full disclosure: I helped define and develop some of the tools on rowsandall, and I’m friends with the principle developer. I get no monetary compensation, but I’m an enthusiastic evangelist for it.

As for privacy, the site is gdpr compliant. A lot of work went into data permissions to enable coaching and training groups.

The site origin of the site was a set of excel tools designed by a concept2 forum member “danburpee “ to process data from a pc program called rowpro. After the number of different ways to get data multiplied (mostly for rowing on the water, but new ones for the erg too), it got to be really complicated to maintain and enhance and share multiple work books. I wrote some python scripts to parse data from different sources into a common format and some plotting scripts. These still exist on the site as the static plots. My friend, Sander took it from there. He wanted to figure out how we could share the tools with folks that weren’t pythonistas and decided a web based service was the best way. He’s been enhancing it continuously for the past few years.

He makes very little money from the site, the pro level subscriptions pay for hosting costs. One very remarkable aspect of rowsandall is responsiveness. We are looking for ways to make it more useful to rowers and actively solicit inputs. If it’s something useful, and reasonably small, it can be added within a few weeks and all users can benefit from it.

Let me know if you like it, or not. Also if you have questions I’d be happy to help out.

[alexp::c2]

Hi Greg,

I can imagine how much work all this makes. I did some (open source) and professional coding. It all looks 'easy to do' and cost hundreds of hours and much devotion.
I will keep it in mind. I did all my training planing myself for long-distance triathlon (there is this great book 'going long by Joe Friel) and it was part of the sport (at least for me). I know there a many people just wanting to download traning plans and having others analyzing their data - to me, this is part of the fun.
For the analysis part I would need the 'Pro' - right? What does 'from' 25€/y mean? The paid plans site has no hint about this.

What I like about the Hr vs. Power is that one can derive plans based on regular tests by extrapolating to the upper Hr ranges without the need to go so high; e-g- based on PWC170 based on an interval test.
I remember the 30minutes 'all out' tests, which (at least for me at that time) ended in the last 10min. above 190bpm. It was really a mess.
I had no powermeter back then. Now with the PM5+Hr belt things are much more convenient.

Here is my very 1st session on the rower
https://ibb.co/R4nS5xh
all cluttered

and this is the 4. row, concentrating on holding the power to a target mean power:
https://ibb.co/kGffnXd

When holding power, you see how the Hr drifts over time (goes up, for long sessions it will drop again). For mixed power session one can see the Hr efficiency. From these data one could get an impression about fitness, fitness development,and I guess also over-training should be recognizable.

[gregsmith01748]

25 euros means 25 euros. Nothing hidden.

You can do a fair amount with the basic plan, but the kind of trend analysis I think you'd want would be part of the pro plan.

As for drift. Here's my 90' row today at a constant 173w. More drift than I'd like to see.

https://rowsandall.com/static/plots/20 ... 190631.png

[jamesg]

I think this is a fantastic way of tracking the fitness level development over time

And does it?

The usual way to check "fitness" is to do a periodical standard test, such as 500m, 4 minutes, 2k or even a 30/20, according to which aspect of fitness we want to monitor. These also allow direct comparison with others in the C2 logbook > rankings.

[Carl Watts]

A decent fitness test could now be developed for the erg using Ergdata but I doubt we will ever see it happen. Even a recovery counter of time vs heartrate at the end of your row for a few minutes would be a great start. Ergdata could use your age etc and come up with a score. Concept 2 can now start using your phone to gather data from you and others to compile tables so you get much larger sample sizes and better accuracy than the rankings because there are no manual entries. You could have a score that would compare yourself to others of the same gender, height age and weight to give you a reference of your fitness.

[dknickerbocker]

I think this is a fantastic way of tracking the fitness level development over time

And does it?

The usual way to check "fitness" is to do a periodical standard test, such as 500m, 4 minutes, 2k or even a 30/20, according to which aspect of fitness we want to monitor. These also allow direct comparison with others in the C2 logbook > rankings.

James, performance on tests is a fine way to track fitness but heart rate vs power is also a commonly accepted and useful one, particularly at low (ie, aerobic) intensities.

Remember 2k performance comes from a number components. Performance tests work well for many of them but not really all day aerobic. What are you gonna do, a two hour test. Not practical. So all else equal, if two months ago you could row 2:20 at 120 bpm and now it’s 110, you have good visibility into that component. You can use this datum in conjunction with your tests to see not only where you are but more importantly, what you might need to work on

[jamesg]

"Fitness" means the ability to do something we trained to do. What better test than doing it?

Any other method of testing fitness will have to be validated by comparison with the results of direct tests. Has that been done for HR/W relationships?

[lindsayh]

I swear that this appeared randomly in my news feed overnight
it reads pretty well (although a cycling article) with a couple of interesting links as well
https://roadcyclinguk.com/how-to/traini ... r-use.html

[alexp::c2]

@ James: I did ultra triathlon -> how should you test that? 11h test?
There I used a 30min mean Hr with the target to get a max mean. This was hard. And I'd like to prevent doing this for level of sport I'm currently doing.

I think the best way is to do a lacatate test once a year or 1/2 year and calibrate this against Hr/Power and the onset of Hr-nonlinearities (coconi test).
But this works only if the onset exist for you (seems 20% of athletes do not show this); so you really need to calibrate for yourself.

Btw. read some studies; the gold standard seems to be VO2max based derivation of training zones (lactate tolerance increases with traing -> the usual 2 and 4 mmol/l limits might not be the best approach.
But, hey, we are no pro's and will not take part in olympia

I see some increase of W/Hr for the sessions I did. (I might show it if you are interested as soon as there are more datapoints).
I attribute this to the gain in technique; rowing was totally new for me -> I'm getting more efficient in doing the movement.

[dknickerbocker]

"Fitness" means the ability to do something we trained to do. What better test than doing it?

Any other method of testing fitness will have to be validated by comparison with the results of direct tests. Has that been done for HR/W relationships?

What you describe isn’t really fitness. Fitness is the adaptations that happen in your body—in your muscles, heart, lungs, mitochondria—in response to the training stress you apply. That is fitness. As it currently stands, fitness is not measurable, at least not for us. No practical way for any of us to look inside and see it. What you are talking about is “performance”. It’s a useful data in its own right but as far as fitness goes, it’s only a proxy.

Everything we have is a proxy. Hr to power relationship is also a proxy and it’s a useful one too, just like performance on a 2k or other field test. When scouting junior prospects, World tour coaches look at the max power the rider can maintain without heart rate drift. This is useful for them bc it shows how hard they can go at their “all day pace” and it is 100% derived from each individual’s hr/power relationship. I’m not sure what additional validation you’d be looking for.

To be clear, nobody’s talking about something like “hr 170 always means X” or whatever. It’s personal to the individual and it comes out in the data over time as you gather it and analyze it.

[lindsayh]

IBtw. read some studies; the gold standard seems to be VO2max based derivation of training zones (lactate tolerance increases with traing -> the usual 2 and 4 mmol/l limits might not be the best approach. But, hey, we are no pro's and will not take part in olympia
I see some increase of W/Hr for the sessions I did. (I might show it if you are interested as soon as there are more datapoints).
I attribute this to the gain in technique; rowing was totally new for me -> I'm getting more efficient in doing the movement.

I think the VO2 max is what is used for elite athletes to measure "fitness" but my understanding is that it will vary a bit from doing it on a bike and a rower and there are very few places set up to do the test on the erg. I reckon just find the proxy that works best for you whether it is HR or Watts or a combo of both and you won't be far off the mark but don't over think it (you are right we are not training for the Olympics). I tend to use HR for longer steady pieces with a cap based on %HRR and a combo of % of 2k Watts and %mhr for the faster interval ones when heading into AN territory.