So what does rowing @ low rate do for me?

[David Pomerantz]

Just did a Moderately intense piece: 30min 16spm 166 heart rate. That is my lowest rate ever. Also did it at one of my lowest drag factors, 110. So while I'm thinking of it I thought I'd ask specifically about the benefits of rowing at low rates and low drag factors. It felt good, but thought I'd seek more informed specific answers. Thanks.
Dave

[Cyclingman1]

I don't know about informed, but rowing at 16 SPM implies a recovery time of about 3 secs. Which means you have to be pulling the crap out of the rower. It has to be quite a strength workout. You did not indicate what the pace per 500m is. Actually low drag factor facilitates slower SPM because the fan decelerates less during the recovery phase. I do know that I cannot row that slowly. It just feels way too weird.

[David Pomerantz]

Cyclingman1,
I'm 50 and have been erging on and off for 25 years or so. I've never come close to your times! So I'm not pulling very hard by your standards. The reason I didn't even mention the speed is that I have sort of stopped paying attention to it in the last year since I started heart rate training. For the first 24'years of rowing, I did virtually every piece at 2:00/500m. Talk about a rut! Now I'm finding that different rates and same speed result in workouts of different intensity. So I've stopped focussing so intently on speed. About once a week I go back to proving I can do my old standard 5000m in 20:00. I usually do that at about 21-22 spm. For me nowadays that feels like about 95% effort.
I'm finding I think what you described. I believe low rate may result in greater strength. No doubt in my mind if distance and time are held constant, it takes more strength to do it in fewer strokes. I think I'm finding that the low rate pieces create lots of room for increasing speed by increasing rate. If I go do a piece at 23-24 spm, now I feel like an animal let loose out of a cage!

Dave

[Bob S.]

I try to pick a stroke rate that is consistent with my intended pace. My idea is that I try to do about the same amount of work for each stroke at whatever pace I am using.

For a convenient example, suppose that a rower does a base 2k of 6:40 @ 35spm (no not me). That's a pace of 1:40 and exactly 350watts, so the average work done per stroke is 10 watt-minutes. For a UT2 that would mean using 14-21spm, UT1 @ 21-24.5spm, AT @ 24.5-28spm, TR @ 28-36.75spm, and AT @ 36.75-40.25spm.

I don't try to stick to a very narrow range for the work per stroke, but if it is off by 20% or more, the pull doesn't feel right.

Bob S.

[Carl Watts]

Low rating is good for strength work however its as Bob pointed out abaove it's just getting your rating to match your pace to get you the best results.

Take for an extreem example the fact that if your having to rate at say 35spm to maintain a 2:00 pace and your not old or out of shape then you have a problem because the only way your going to significantly improve your times is to drop the rating.

The body is not a machine and it has some unusual traits like I notice that I can increase the rating 1 or 2 spm and the pace by a second or two and the heartrate actually drops. Clearly you can fall into a sweet spot when your drag factor and spm and pace line up.

[Pararowing]

The advantage of rowing at a lower stroke rate has several things

1) is allows more time for technical changes (ideally if you have a coach, mirror or some advanced CCTV / plasma tv setup)

2) helps to produce more power, the aim of rating lower (within reason) allows for the boat / fly wheel to decrease in speed so that you can develop your power per stroke and then when you take the rating up you "hopefully" can bring his greater torque with you and therefore go faster

[David Pomerantz]

Yes this is exactly what I have found. I can let my rating go up and my speed will increase and my heart rate will decrease. I feel like my natural sweet spot is about at a rating of 21-23spm. Maybe it has decreased a bit over the years. Where do most people find their sweet spot for say a 5k row. Would people use a different rating for say 5k versus 10k versus 1 hour?

Dave

[Cyclingman1]

I invariably row at around 32-34 SPM for all of my hard efforts (fast) from 1K through 1 hr. Of course, the speed falls off as distance increases because one cannot maintain a 1K pace for 1 hour. Even when I do slower efforts at a distance, I still am in the low 30's with of course less vigorous pulling. Apparently, my technique, that is low 30's SPM for all distances and times, makes me an odd bird.

[Carl Watts]

Yes this is exactly what I have found. I can let my rating go up and my speed will increase and my heart rate will decrease. I feel like my natural sweet spot is about at a rating of 21-23spm. Maybe it has decreased a bit over the years. Where do most people find their sweet spot for say a 5k row. Would people use a different rating for say 5k versus 10k versus 1 hour?

Dave

Your sweet spot is exactly the same as mine, 21 to 23 spm gives me the best results for longer training rows, the heartrate just takes a dive compared to any other rating while maintaining 1:58 pace.

The problem I have found however is that to much low rating work has a tendancy to condition your body to a certain power vs spm and I have to really focus on not dropping the rating for PB's and the ratings are still to low. Still I would rather have a 2K PB at 28 spm rather than 35+.

The rating decreases with distance or you just wasting a larger and larger percentage of you energy going up and down the slide relative to the enrgy going into the flywheel. It's not going to change a huge amount from 5Km to 60 minutes but is does from 500M to the FM. There is no way I would want to be trying to do 34spm for a FM at a relatively slow 2:07 pace !

[Bob S.]

Apparently, my technique, that is low 30's SPM for all distances and times, makes me an odd bird.

You are not alone. I believe that you are a member of the UK forum as well as this one. If so, you have probably seen posts by Turbocog. He is also a high rate advocate and really surprised me with one post in which he said that, for the same pace, his HR was higher at lower stroke rate. I was baffled by that and, out of curiosity, tested out the effects on myself. The test consisted of 3 rows of 20' each at 80% of my current 2k time, i.e. the AT/TR border line. They were done at 20spm, 24spm, and 30spm, at as steady a rate and pace that I could hold. They were done on separate days, with a rest day after each to keep my condition about the same. For each one, I did a 5' warm up starting at a low rate and slow pace and building up to the rate that I planned to use for the piece. Each was following by a 5' cool down. I could find no significant differences in my HR results. I used 1' splits so there was plenty of data.

The fact that the 2 of you both had competitive cycling backgrounds suggests to me that there is something about cycling habits having an influence - not necessarily on technique, but on the feeling involved. I have done a lot of cycling myself, but it has been non-competitive for all but one occasion. Most of it was short commuting, a lot of moderate fun rides, and several solo, self-contained tours of up to 2 weeks. I did start rowing (about age 7) well before I learned to ride a bike (about age 12), so that is my more natural element.

I checked with another UK forumite who has had great success both in erg and cycling competitions and has recently taken up OTW rowing with enthusiasm (in his 60s!!). He agreed that new rowers with cycling backgrounds might have that carryover of cycling habits. At this point he does not stick with high rates, but uses what he feels is appropriate for whatever row he is doing. I might point out that he had regular coaching when he first go† into erging and a lot more since he has gone on the water.

I realize that you have had great results in your erging - far beyond what might be expected from someone who just started quite recently. Apparently your sticking to high rates has not had any deleterious effect. I do think that there are advantages to using low rates, but I don't whether or not it would be useful to you to use them enough to get comfortable with them.

Bob S.

[David Pomerantz]

Yes I have found that the low rating work has seemed to lower my perceived sweet spot rating some. I've done a lot of work @ about 18 spm and I think it has decreased my sweet spot rate to the 21-22spm range from the 23-24 range. Small difference I know, but I perceive it as I'm sure you can all appreciate. I actually had been wondering if that sweet spot change might be a function of aging, but perhaps it is a result of the lower rate work in the 18-19spm range. Anybody have thoughts on sweet spot rate as a function of age?

Dave

[Carl Watts]

I think your rowing just constantly evolves over time and its not just age its fitness and what suits your height and body type etc and you just settle into a groove thst suits you. When I started getting more serious a few years ago all my rowing was at 27-28 spm and it has come along way since then with dramatically reduced spm and faster pace.

[Bob S.]

I actually had been wondering if that sweet spot change might be a function of aging, but perhaps it is a result of the lower rate work in the 18-19spm range. Anybody have thoughts on sweet spot rate as a function of age?

I have not noticed any particular correlation with age, but I was surprised - almost shocked in fact - when I first tried out a demo dynamic model. I found that my spm shot way on up and I had to think about it to bring it down. Now that I have had my own for over a year, I am used to it and can easily control the spm. The major difference I have found is that I can go on up to as high as 60spm, whereas my limit on the grounded model D was about 40 and in the low 40s with the D on slides.

Bob S.

[Cyclingman1]

I do think that my cycling and running background has a lot to do with how I row beyond the obvious fitness advantages. There is no equivalent to rowing at 16 SPM in either of those activities. One cannot operate at one speed and power through one fourth of a revolution or stride and totally different for the remainder. Also on a bike when the gearing goes higher, the RPM come down; whereas in rowing a high drag factor requires higher SPM due to the quicker slowing down of the flywheel. When one gears way down on a bike, the equivalent of turning the damper way down, the RPM goes up a lot. Witness Lance Armstrong on Alp d’Huez.

In cycling and running constant pressure and intensity is maintained throughout. For one, it keeps the heart rate even keel. I can see why a higher SPM in rowing may actually result in a lower heart rate at the same pace/500m. At 16 SPM the pull for one fourth of the cycle must be quite substantial to keep the pace up compared to the force of the pull at say 32 SPM. The greater effort must elevate the heart rate.

As I’ve said before, I just have not found rowing at low SPM on an indoor rower the way to maximize times. I realize some use low SPM as a training tool only. Perhaps some of that may help. It’s like doing hill repeats in running. Everyone will end of rowing how they feel comfortable and for me that is not anything below 30 SPM.

[Carl Watts]

IAs I’ve said before, I just have not found rowing at low SPM on an indoor rower the way to maximize times. I realize some use low SPM as a training tool only. Perhaps some of that may help. It’s like doing hill repeats in running. Everyone will end of rowing how they feel comfortable and for me that is not anything below 30 SPM.

I don't want to appear rude but I think you clearly transitioned while in a "Very Fit State" from running and cycling to indoor rowing. This has resulted in the odd World Record from people of a similar background, notibly in the old age groups who have jumped on the Erg for practically the first time.

Anyone starting from scratch fitness wise will benifit from low rate work. Age may be a factor here however as the low rate work is much harder on the joints and lower back so your body may just not be able to take it and hence it doesn't feel "comfortable". It has certainly helped me achieve faster times, no doubt about it.