Tried the erg for the first time ever; 6:56 2000m

[rowingrookie]

Hello all,

So, watching the olympics inspired me to try out the erg at my gym for the 1st time ever. Last monday I decided to try 2000m since that is the race distance in the olympics, but somehow I didn't see my time before the erg somehow reset. So, I went again 48 hrs later to do it again, and got a time of 6:56 for 2k, or 1:44 for each 500m split. The footstaps also came loose and I didn't quite go all out; I think if I tried that again I could get close to 6:40.

I did a little research on rowing/ergs/times online, and sounds like that is pretty good for a newbie. I am 23 years old, 6' 3'', 195 lbs. I have been a fitness/health nut for years, lift weights about 4x a week, and can do 20 continuous pull-ups, 400 lb deadlift, and 280 lb bench. I also either play ultimate frisbee, swim or bike about twice a week. So my base level of strength and conditioning going into trying out the erg was pretty good.

It sounds like to have a shot at being an elite rower, you need to get 6min or lower. I think I would really like rowing, and I think I have the drive and mindset to get really good, but am I too old to be dreaming of becoming elite?

Since doing that test, I haven't been on the erg again because I decided I don't want to engrain poor technique.
I am working on trying to contact a local club/coach to teach me correct technique, as bad as I've been wanting to get on the concept 2 everyday...

Just curious as to any advice/input anyone could give. Sorry that was kind of long. Any responses with be much appreciated!

Thanks!

[ArmandoChavezUNC]

That's a really, really good time for a 1st 2k, especially if you have never erged before.

Definitely not too late to pick up the sport. If you can find a solid rowing club to get coached on good technique on the erg as well as hopefully get out on the water you could probably being that 2k way down.

Just remember erg splits are exponential, so the faster you go the harder each second becomes to drop.

[Cyclingman1]

Congrats on 6:56 right out of the box. It says a lot about your fitness, athletic ability, size, age, etc. You might have 20 more secs that will come somewhat quickly. To get to 6:00 will involve considerable effort.

Obviously just time on the rower is important. I personally have never felt mega-meters is necessary. But most important is doing some interval work, that is, faster repeats. For example, can you do 500m at 1:39, row easy for 3 mins, and repeat the cycle for a total of 6 or so fast 500m? It is a basic principle: one must overload the system to improve. As the 2K time improves, the intervals get quicker. Interval distances and times can be experimented with. Rowing really fast for 30 sec has some merit.

There is a lot of info out there on all of this. There are also many so-called plans. Perhaps, if you have the time, one of those plans can be followed. I find them to be overly complicated. I personally do not think they are necessary, assuming one follows some basic training principles. If one has no background in endurance training, they can help.

Re: technique. Rowing on a erg is not all that hard. Watch You Tube videos or Concept 2 videos on rowing style. If your rowing feels smooth and steady, chances are you are doing fine. If at all jerky or awkward, something is wrong. There is some debate in the rowing community, especially among on-the-water rowers, about the importance of technique versus power and endurance. On an erg, technique is even less important than OTW. Finding a rowing coach is not all that easy to do.

Is 23 too old to become elite? That is funny. Most endurance athletes do not peak until their late twenties and can usually maintain well into their 30s. Now is the time to get started.

[TabbRows]

First, congrats on trying the C2 erg. Your time looks good for your age group. Middle of the pack most likely. Top elites in the 19-29 age category have race times below 6:15. I disagree with cycleman1, technique matters and matters a whole heck of a lot, especially toward the end of a race when you're tired. Just 'feeling smooth" doesn't mean you have good technique. But do find an on the water rower/coach to show you proper technique. Many personal trainers in the gym haven't a clue as to proper technique. For someone with your age, built, and prior physical training, you can muscle your way through on the erg. Many newbies, have the dampers set on the highest number because they can "feel the pull" better. But they have little power when the drag factor is set and 100 or lower because rowing (and erging) is a pushing sport. Back and arms only come into play near the end of the stroke. You didn't say, and may not have even looked at, the rating--stokes per minute--you had. Many newbies and gym rowers think they have to go fast up and down the slide to keep the flywheel spinning. If you are serious about taking up rowing, do set a goal and find a program that works for you. The Wolverine Program mentioned in threads on this board, and the Pete's Plan (which has a website), or the UK C2 site's interactive plan are good places to start. They all focus on technique and building strength in the stroke through lower stroke rates as well as give you interval and longer distance rowing sessions. But most of all come into the sport with the idea that this will be something you will enjoy in the long term and don't worry about comparing yourself to others for at least a year or more. There'll be a number of indoor rowing events coming up at the turn of the year. Find one in your area or within driving distance, enter it and see how you do, meet others and spend time learning. Best of rowing to you.

[hjs]

Rowing is a technical sport, so 23 is indeed old, but some people learn very fast. And in a bigger boat technique is a bit easier.
If you want to start rowing, go to a good rowing club, erging is not rowing, and a good erger who never rows is worth nothing in a boat.
You first time is ok, certainly if it was not a max row, but for a fit young guy not special. Top rowers get sub 6 and the very best get 5.40 in top shape.
Rowing is also and endurance sport, to be very good you have make lot's of hours. 200 k a week is normal. With less it is not possible to reach your personal max. Those Km are 85/90% relative slow/aerobic.

[Bob S.]

Since doing that test, I haven't been on the erg again because I decided I don't want to engrain poor technique.
I am working on trying to contact a local club/coach to teach me correct technique, as bad as I've been wanting to get on the concept 2 everyday...

A very wise decision. For an on the water rower, the erg is an excellent machine for maintaining fitness when it is not possible to go out on the water, but it does little to train you to row. Coaches will use it for a brand new beginner for an hour or so, just to teach the simpler parts of basic technique before you go on the water, but doing it on your own would not work. Get out on the water as soon as possible. There are many complexities that you encounter in a boat that just cannot be simulated in a machine. Balance is an obvious item, but there is also feathering, contact of the blades with the water, contending with waves, effect of the wind, having to watch where you are going, and on and on.

Bob S.

[shaugh13]

But they have little power when the drag factor is set and 100 or lower because rowing (and erging) is a pushing sport. Back and arms only come into play near the end of the stroke. .

Rowing is nearly all back and legs. so your bench wont help you at all, your impressive deadlift and level of fitness means with a year of erging just to get the technique you'll be down near 6:20, but from what you've said you could prob be good at any sport after dedicating a year to it

[rowingrookie]

Thanks for all the responses!

Congrats on 6:56 right out of the box. It says a lot about your fitness, athletic ability, size, age, etc. You might have 20 more secs that will come somewhat quickly. To get to 6:00 will involve considerable effort.

Obviously just time on the rower is important. I personally have never felt mega-meters is necessary. But most important is doing some interval work, that is, faster repeats. For example, can you do 500m at 1:39, row easy for 3 mins, and repeat the cycle for a total of 6 or so fast 500m? It is a basic principle: one must overload the system to improve. As the 2K time improves, the intervals get quicker. Interval distances and times can be experimented with. Rowing really fast for 30 sec has some merit.

This is exactly what I've been thinking regarding rowing training. I understand that while a 2k is short, it is still mostly aerobic and there is a need for some longer cardiovascular training, but it seems like fast 500m intervals at faster than race pace would be the best. It seems like if you were used to training at such high intensities, all of the sudden your 2k race pace wouldn't seem as hard. The only problem is this type of training is hard on the body, whereas it seems the slower training can be done daily or even multiple times a day.

First, congrats on trying the C2 erg. Your time looks good for your age group. Middle of the pack most likely. Top elites in the 19-29 age category have race times below 6:15. I disagree with cycleman1, technique matters and matters a whole heck of a lot, especially toward the end of a race when you're tired. Just 'feeling smooth" doesn't mean you have good technique. But do find an on the water rower/coach to show you proper technique. Many personal trainers in the gym haven't a clue as to proper technique. For someone with your age, built, and prior physical training, you can muscle your way through on the erg. Many newbies, have the dampers set on the highest number because they can "feel the pull" better. But they have little power when the drag factor is set and 100 or lower because rowing (and erging) is a pushing sport. Back and arms only come into play near the end of the stroke. You didn't say, and may not have even looked at, the rating--stokes per minute--you had. Many newbies and gym rowers think they have to go fast up and down the slide to keep the flywheel spinning. There'll be a number of indoor rowing events coming up at the turn of the year. Find one in your area or within driving distance, enter it and see how you do, meet others and spend time learning. Best of rowing to you.

Yes, while I felt pretty natural on the c2, I'm sure I was doing a lot inefficiently. I also probably did 'muscle my way' through it as you said. After watching some youtube videos, I think I was 'shooting the slide' a bit, and then just using my strong upper body to pull hard and fast on the handle. I had the damper set on 4 of 10. And no I didn't see my stokes per minute, sorry. But I felt like I was going pretty fast- probably too quickly. It seemed like going faster kept the wheel spinning more? And thanks for the heads up on the indoor rowing events. Will look into it.

Since doing that test, I haven't been on the erg again because I decided I don't want to engrain poor technique.
I am working on trying to contact a local club/coach to teach me correct technique, as bad as I've been wanting to get on the concept 2 everyday...

A very wise decision. For an on the water rower, the erg is an excellent machine for maintaining fitness when it is not possible to go out on the water, but it does little to train you to row. Coaches will use it for a brand new beginner for an hour or so, just to teach the simpler parts of basic technique before you go on the water, but doing it on your own would not work. Get out on the water as soon as possible. There are many complexities that you encounter in a boat that just cannot be simulated in a machine. Balance is an obvious item, but there is also feathering, contact of the blades with the water, contending with waves, effect of the wind, having to watch where you are going, and on and on.

Bob S.

Thanks for the advice. Yes I am looking to try it out on the water before summer's over. Then hopefully train on the erg a lot over the winter, and look into joining a club full-time next spring if I end up liking it a lot. I should mention that I usually kayak and canoe a couple times a summer, probably a total of about 15 times in my life. While it's not much, at least I have some feel of being on the water and moving a paddle through the water.

But they have little power when the drag factor is set and 100 or lower because rowing (and erging) is a pushing sport. Back and arms only come into play near the end of the stroke. .

Rowing is nearly all back and legs. so your bench wont help you at all, your impressive deadlift and level of fitness means with a year of erging just to get the technique you'll be down near 6:20, but from what you've said you could prob be good at any sport after dedicating a year to it

Yeah I realize it's nearly all back and legs, not sure why I put my bench in there, wasn't very relavant. And thanks you're very kind, but I don't know about that haha

[Bob S.]

I had the damper set on 4 of 10.

That damper setting sounds fine, but the damper setting alone is not the full story, especially on a club machine. You need to check the drag factor (or DF), which does, indeed, vary with the damper setting, but also with the temperature, the air pressure and the cleanliness of the cage around the fly wheel. Check out this URL.

Understanding Drag Factor:

http://www.concept2.com/us/training/adv ... factor.asp

Club machines are notorious for having a build up of dust clogging the pores of the cage. This has the effect of impeding the air flow. That is the same effect as closing the damper - i.e. setting the damper to a lower number.

Bob S.

[ArmandoChavezUNC]

Someone suggested interval training to lower your 2k.

In the short term, yes. In the long term, wrong approach.

Loads of SS with a few interval/short pieces per week is the answer.

[rowingrookie]

Someone suggested interval training to lower your 2k.

In the short term, yes. In the long term, wrong approach.

Loads of SS with a few interval/short pieces per week is the answer.

Huh interesting. Why does interval training work in the short term but not as much in the longer term?

And sorry to sound ignorant/stupid here, but what is SS?

I had the damper set on 4 of 10.

That damper setting sounds fine, but the damper setting alone is not the full story, especially on a club machine. You need to check the drag factor (or DF), which does, indeed, vary with the damper setting, but also with the temperature, the air pressure and the cleanliness of the cage around the fly wheel. Check out this URL.

Understanding Drag Factor:

http://www.concept2.com/us/training/adv ... factor.asp

Club machines are notorious for having a build up of dust clogging the pores of the cage. This has the effect of impeding the air flow. That is the same effect as closing the damper - i.e. setting the damper to a lower number.

Bob S.

Thanks for the info, good to know. The wheel did look pretty dusty. Would someone like me- who probably has more strength than the average rower but probably less endurance- would I do better with a higher drag factor?

Also thanks to anyone who PM'ed me, for some reason right now I am able to read my messages but not reply.

oops scratch that, I saw on the link regarding drag factor that 110-140 is usually best, even for top heavyweights...

[shaugh13]

Someone suggested interval training to lower your 2k.

In the short term, yes. In the long term, wrong approach.

Loads of SS with a few interval/short pieces per week is the answer.

Huh interesting. Why does interval training work in the short term but not as much in the longer term?

And sorry to sound ignorant/stupid here, but what is SS?

SS = steady state as in slow and long training session,

I agree with the post though theres generally two ways you can train. One to see small increases in personal best nearly every other week and thats the interval approach.

If you want to train for a specific event such as Crash bs or trials of any sort then doing around 80% SS and 20% interval would be the best in my opinion. In technical terms 80% Zone 1 training and 20% Zone 5, and to find out your zones you'd have to get lactate testing done.

[Bob S.]

Why does interval training work in the short term but not as much in the longer term?

And sorry to sound ignorant/stupid here, but what is SS?

Would someone like me- who probably has more strength than the average rower but probably less endurance- would I do better with a higher drag factor?

I see that the SS question has been covered.

For a seasonal approach, rowing coaches generally start out with a lot of steady state, concentrating on developing good technique, and gradually increasing the training distances to build up endurance. As they get into the period of competitions, they add in interval sessions to build up speed. OTW there are basically 2 seasons, 2k (and 1k for over the hill "masters") races in the spring and summer and "head races" in the fall which are generally in the 5k range. This is sort of bassackwards for a decent training schedule, but that's the way it is. The C2 season is defined by the company itself as May 1st to April 30, with the peak of the indoor competitions (almost all 2k) coming in January and February, culminating in the World Indoor Rowing Championships (WIRC, originally known as the "Crash-Bs") held in Boston in late February.

Back to the SS vs intervals. Both are useful and most training programs incorporate both. One quite popular erg program, the Pete Plan, schedules a couple of interval sessions, one with many short intervals and one with 4 longer intervals each week. It has three long steady state sessions and one long, intense session that can be a Personal Best (PB) attempt. It runs in a three week cycle, with variations in each week's schedule, mostly in the interval pieces. Another popular one is the "Interactive Programme" found on the UK C2 site. That program is much longer term, starting out with mostly SS and gradually bringing in speed work in a build up to the competitions. these are especially popular in the UK where there is a lot more indoor rowing competition than in the US. They are strictly designed for the erg, not for OTW. The Wolverine plan was developed for rowing on the water at the U. of Michigan, where they were no doubt stuck with doing a lot of erg work waiting for the ice to clear. It is a more complex program than the others and has a big emphasis on long pieces with varying pace and stroke rate for working on control.

Bob S.

[Cyclingman1]

RowingRookie,

I would like to say, "Use common sense," in your training, but I realize that what is common sense for long-time athletes is probably not for most. Although you do have an athletic background.

Regarding mega-meters per week to get better. Definitely not needed. It would more than likely beat you down than train you. Marathon runners train around 100 miles a week or 4x race distance. If you are focusing on 2K, 200K a week is completely unnecessay. I can't put a number on what it should be for you, but I would think that anything over 50K a week is excessive - less is fine.

Regarding intervals. Noone here is suggesing that all that is needed is interval training. Interval training is tough, but not that tough. Again faster than race pace is needed to improve. If it is exhausting, you are going too hard. I think that intervals should be done about once a week - maybe twice a week if one is talking about longer, less intense intervals. IMO, so-called intervals slower than race pace are not intervals.

I personally like 5K as a distance that pertains well to 2K. It increases endurance while not being too much slower than 2K. 500m intervals are still the best for 2K.

Noone here is even remotely suggesting that erg rowing has a whole lot to do with OTW rowing. In that case erg rowing is mostly a fitness tool. But there of tons of people in these forums who have never been in a scull or eight. The complex interaction of handling an oar while pushing/pulling hard is not present. I stand by my comment that rowing on an erg is not all that complicated. Obviously maintaining pressure on the handle while simultaneously pushing with legs or later in the stroke pulling with the back has to be done. It's not really a big deal. I dare say anyone attending Crash-B would see that rowing technique among top rowers does vary.

Don't be intimidated by suggestions that improvement in rowing is going to be some monumental, complicated task. You put time and effort in, you will improve - maybe even a lot. Your first-time 2K time says that you have some innate talent. Someone said that your time is "middle of the pack." Yeah, on your first row. How many times had those other "middle-packers" rowed. Undoubtedly, many.

[hjs]

Re volume, for the subtop 50 k is indeed plenty, erging in itself is not a real sport, but if someone wanted to reach his full potential a lot more is needed.

Re erg technique, indeed not hat important, most people with a decent feel for movement will learn in pretty soon. It is not much different from cycling.

Regarding mega-meters per week to get better. Definitely not needed. It would more than likely beat you down than train you. Marathon runners train around 100 miles a week or 4x race distance. If you are focusing on 2K, 200K a week is completely unnecessay. I can't put a number on what it should be for you, but I would think that anything over 50K a week is excessive - less is fine.


Noone here is even remotely suggesting that erg rowing has a whole lot to do with OTW rowing. In that case erg rowing is mostly a fitness tool. But there of tons of people in these forums who have never been in a scull or eight. The complex interaction of handling an oar while pushing/pulling hard is not present. I stand by my comment that rowing on an erg is not all that complicated. Obviously maintaining pressure on the handle while simultaneously pushing with legs or later in the stroke pulling with the back has to be done. It's not really a big deal. I dare say anyone attending Crash-B would see that rowing technique among top rowers does vary.

Don't be intimidated by suggestions that improvement in rowing is going to be some monumental, complicated task. You put time and effort in, you will improve - maybe even a lot. Your first-time 2K time says that you have some innate talent. Someone said that your time is "middle of the pack." Yeah, on your first row. How many times had those other "middle-packers" rowed. Undoubtedly, many.