fast vs. slow hands away

[kbaktidy95@gmail.com]

All of my rowing career my coaches have taught me to get my hands away from my body quick during the recovery, and go up the slide slow. I agree with this and our team has been very successful using this. Now my summer rowing coach is telling me that I am getting my hands away to quickly, and that getting your hands away slower is better. I have noticed our boat isn't getting as much run with slow hands away. What do you think is better?

[JimmyL]

Fast hands are paramount, without them the oar will get stuck at the finish and you'll crab.

Ask him why he wants to slow down your hands, it might be because your rushing your slide and then stopping the boat. He might want you to be smoother going up to the catch.

[Sculler]

Hands need to be relaxed and flow, and fast hands is fine as long as fast doesn't become rushed or forced...

Without seeing how fast your hands away are it's hard to say if they are too fast or not.

I also coach fast hands, but for steady state we often slow the hands down making sure we still get good separation.

You need to ask your coach what he means by slower and why he wants the hand speed he does. Fast hands are a great shortcut to getting separation and a crew rhythm, but more experienced crews can row better if they are calmer and don't force the hands away too quickly.

[Tinus]

Rowing is always about a balance and you will see a lot differences among teams. The bottom line is that it often doesn't matter how you row as long as you do it in a similar way.

When I coach I often try to get the crew acquainted with the variability of the movement making them conscious about the two extremes of a certain aspect in the stroke. After that step we (not I, the coach) try find the optimal. The problem is often that the optimal is unknown.

The hands away movement is a very good example of this principle. You see a lot variations in speed but also the type of movement can also be a lot varied. For instance, you can keep the trunk steady while fully extending the arms before bending forward with the trunk or you could move the trunk and arms simultaneously. Also the point at which the knees start to bend can be varied.

The fast pronounced movement which you have been thought is often an easy way to get teams synchronised because it is a very simple and clear movement. However I don't believe it is the most optimal and teams which have been rowing this way should try to change a little bit towards a slower movement and more synchronous movement. Watching videos of world championships or world cup can be a good example.
- Do you see those people recover with a sharp contrast between quick arms and slow legs? A more even distribution of speed during the recover is probably more advantageous because it'll reduce the maximum (peak) energy of your internal motion. Part of this energy is dissipated.
- Also a more synchronous movement of body parts is advantageous because it reduces the speed of your body parts movement. You will be able to recover very quickly while moving very slowly if you are moving body parts more at the same time. A fast arms away movement can become an explosive movement and introduce disturbing elements for keeping balance. Look at the example and see that they are not really doing arms and trunk first before they start to bend the knees. They are moving more synchronous and the knees and handle sometimes almost touch. The reason why you don't start learning the movement in this way is probably because it difficult and indeed as Jimmy says it'll reduces the chance to get a crab.

So changing the speed of your hands away movement is an improvement of your current rowing. You should not see it as your rowing is currently wrong. You should see it as your rowing is currently good but gets improved. I often like to use the expression 'rowing too neat' or 'rowing too much according to the books'. It is a good thing but it must be changed.

[Rockin Roland]

Stroke Finishes - same speed in...same speed out.
The rowing stroke and recovery should be ONE CONTINOUS MOTION.
If you start thinlking about faster or slower hands around the back turn then you have lost touch with what the actual boat is doing and probably killing its run through ther water.

It's absolutely critical that the speed of the release is in concert with the speed of the boat past the puddle. To do otherwise exhibits lack of feel for the water and lack of pace sense of the boat speed.

Assuming everyone is rowing efficiently, hand speed at a rating of 22 will be different to 35, but the overall determining principle of hand speed will always be the boat speed and not necessarily just the rating.

[majikx]

Looks like a lot of completely unsupported conjecture. Other than the fact that Washington rows with fast hands and beats everybody , does anyone have something other than superstition to offer?

[siskiyou]

I've spent a good deal of time on the water and have been fortunate to have received useful, pertinent, kind and generous coaching. Yet I must cheer majikx's comment. Often, coaching advice, even that given by skilled oarsmen or by people who coach for a living, amounts to no more than an instance of the blind being led by the inarticulate. What on earth does "Fast hands are paramount, without them the oar will get will get stuck at the finish and you'll crab" actually mean? Is the commenter talking about the importance of timing and relaxation at the release? Or, "The rowing stroke and recovery should be ONE CONTINUOUS MOTION." Parse that. It is on a par with "Everything starts together and finishes together" which I heard from a coach in the early 80's. Also, with respect to RR (not the snide "all due respect" but rather, genuine respect) I'd like to see a video or other graphic presentation showing how "the speed of the release" must be "in concert with the speed of the boat." I don't understand how the handle speed, acceleration and so forth on the drive is ever likely to be equal to that on the rrecovery, unless the topic is the vertical movement, rather that horizontal travel of the handle and thus the blade. Very good people can be hard to understand.

[jamesg]

It seems hull drag is proportional to hull speed cubed. This means that to reduce as far as possible the total work we do against drag, hull speed should not change more than necessary. High peak hull speeds cause disproportionately high drag. This implies that our body momentum should not change much during the recovery; but as arms and hands are much lighter than trunk and legs, we can move the former fast, and so have more time to go slower with the rest of our mass.

This is qualitative only; quantitative is not so easy to define.

[siskiyou]

Please excuse my typos. And, more important, no impoliteness was intended.

[Rockin Roland]

A few more points on this topic in relation to hand, body and hull speed:
If you have slow hands around the back turn then there is a risk of the crew dumping their weight into the bow at the finish. This will cause the boat to pourpose where the bow dives down into the water checking the run of the boat. You want to avoid that. Far better to think about getting your bodies to follow your hands out of the bow together rather than hands, arms out straight then rocking over with the bodies.

Not all coaches agree though but from my experience fast hands works better than slow hands. The only caviet being is that you are pulling right through to your body at the finish to get maximun length with the oar in the water. You don't want the fast hands to be forcing you to tap down too early then dumping the finish(which is one of the bad habits many pick up from training on stationary C2 ergs).

[Nosmo]

Strongly second Tinus's comments.

You can do fast hands or slow hands and have it work well. There is very little weight in your hands and arms, and any shift in weight by moving the hands is mostly counterbalanced by the oars moving in the opposite direction. The speed of the hands only matters as it effects the rest of the stroke. It is more important to do what you do smoothly.

Fast hands can help get the body moving out of bow especially with novice crews. However one could be slow with the hands and start moving the body faster or sooner out of bow than someone with fast hands.

If you look at what fast crews and single scullers do, there is wide variation, but all get the blades in and out of the water very cleanly without missing water and they don't slow the boat down on the recovery. Be relaxed and smooth on the recovery and don't get too hung up on a particular style.

For more info: look at this video of Drew Ginn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... n-G91HGegQ
and pay particular attention to Carl Douglas' comments in this thread where he discusses that video:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/r ... 4K0o7TviEJ
and to Xeno's response to Drew Ginn: http://youtu.be/aMy2yAcq5V0

Finally you should be matching hand/blade speed with the stroke ( assuming you are not stroking of course ).

[Stelph]

Some more reading here where Drew Ginn expands some more on what he said in the video linked above

http://drewginn.blogspot.com/2013/02/ro ... +Ginn)&m=1

Also another point that outlines the science behind how the boat is moving when you at taking the stroke

http://www.rowinginmotion.com/improve-y ... -recovery/

The main thing to note as Drew points out, there isnt "one way" of rowing that works for everyone, we are all biomechanically slightly different and so there are going to be slight differences between how we all approach the stroke, however as the rowing in motion link points out there are several facts that you cannot argue

1) You are heavier than the boat, therefore remember that whenever you slide or you apply a force, it is having more of an affect on the boat moving with respect to the water than it is speeding upp/slowing down your bodys movement with respect to the boat

2) Because of this, when you press on the stretcher (ie. slow yourself down coming to the catch) you are slowing the boat down, conversely if you pull on the stretcher (like you do if you move quickly through the recover) then you are speeding the boat up, therefore ideally you want to pull on the stretcher during the recovery and then at the last possible moment, push on the stretcher at the catch to change direction and start the drive

3) at the catch you have to change direction, the longer you take to change the direction the more you slow the boat, so ideally the quicker the catch the better

Taking those into account, it appears that the best way to take a stroke then is to "pull" the boat towards you during the recovery and then at the catch spend as little time as possible placing and then driving off the catch, if you were trying to do that at low rates you would have to "slow" somewhere (and it cant be during the drive) so the only place you can slow the stroke down and not lose the advantages of accelerating the boat in the recovery is to slow the hands and rock over at the finish

Again, this is all theory/ideal since, for example, its no good accelerating the recovery if you get to the catch and your catch is slow, you just check the boat a significant amount, but its certainly something to think about working towards/understanding how you and the boat move through the stroke and how to get the best out of each stroke

[grahamcawood]

Greetings. Fast away!!!. Any pause at the finish, or slow movement, will have to be made up by a rush to reach the catch in time. You also need to get the hands beyond the knees to allow them to lift.
May I recommend for sculling: Always do 26 spm or more, at 1:1 in:out. Finish leg and arm movement TOGETHER. Legs rebound, and the quickly moved hands clear the rising knees. NO PAUSING of the legs,or forcing them straight.
I also suggest: Allow your back to comfortably curve throughout the stroke(Visit Dr. Fiona Wilson). Allow the arms to fully extend only at the instant of the catch, drawn by the stopping blade. Raise the heels on perhaps 20mm blocks so they never lift. Consciously relax the ankles throughout. Pull on the heels in the recovery. Feather the blade while it leaves the water - to reduce lift and drive the boat. Layback at the catch by rotating your torso below the ribs. This will reduce the load on your lower back, and give you a longer leg drive. In a boat reduce gate height as much as possible,again to reduce the load on the back. Mine is 125mm.
Visit my youtube "graham cawood Rhecon technique" video if you like.
Have fun.

[lwtguy]

This is one of the age old debates on rowing technique. I've heard so many arguments supporting each. Personally I would say that the smaller the boat, the quicker the hands away should be, but never faster than a 1:1 ratio. Larger boats can do well with a slower turnaround but only as long as everyone is doing it in time.

[jackarabit]

Drew Ginn's argument for softy, softly out of bow is nearly irrefutable as applied to boats with the waterline and the combined rower mass to make boat run per stroke a major consideration. If another team is churnin' and burnin" that's what makes a race isn't it? What one bunch can sustain and others can't either right this minute or over the length of the course? First over the line wins except in head races. The addition of Rhecon single scull technique muddies the waters of an old thread that has stood the test of time.