Lifting vs. Lots of Rowing for 500 times

[luckylindy]

This may seem like a dumb question, but I'm wondering if it would be better to focus on lots of muscle-building exercises to improve my 500m time instead of focusing on lots of distance and intervals? I've been rowing for almost 2 months (hit 400,000m yesterday), and while my longer times have steadily come down, my 500 and LP remain about the same (although I still haven't added in intervals or fast training yet).

My thinking is that, at some point, my sprint times would severely hamper my ability to improve my longer distance times. I have been at Crossfit gyms and watched muscular guys of the same height sit down and pull a 1:20 500 after only a couple sessions on the erg ... seems like strength counts (not sure how it translates to distance though).

Since extensive distance rowing would make it harder to build muscle, would I be better suited to keep my rows short (no more than 10k) and focus on strength/muscle building for a while?

[ThatMoos3Guy]

Strength training definitely can help you build a stronger drive, especially for short pieces like a 500m. However, it's also important to work on erg sprinting. I equaled my low pull from almost a year ago the other week. I'm about 10lbs lighter, and haven't been lifting weights consistently, but I can still pull just as hard. Workouts like 6x30"on/1.5' off can be great for developing your anaerobic strength. Rowing long distances is fantastic for your cardiovascular system, but it's not going to make you significantly faster in a sprint. I bet once you start mixing in some short intervals you'll drop some time on the sprint distances.

[BradL]

I agree strength through weight lifting has a value in rowing. I have only been rowing for about three months. For the last few years I have done very little cardio, and almost exclusively lifted heavy weights. My times up to 300 metres (45 sec) reflect my strength, but I think even my longer rows are helped by this base. I agree with Moos3 that sprinting is really helpful as well. Also, if you watch someone like Rob Smith row you will see that sprints are an entirely different style of rowing. There is much less legs and much more back. I can still deadlift well over 500 lbs, and so it is much easier to get the flywheel going and keep your momentum going. As far as longer distances go, I would think, that weightlifting would have less and less impact. Look at the body types doing the great short distances. Rob Smith and company are very large strong men, but none of them are anywhere near the top in the 2000m plus races.

[hjs]

This may seem like a dumb question, but I'm wondering if it would be better to focus on lots of muscle-building exercises to improve my 500m time instead of focusing on lots of distance and intervals? I've been rowing for almost 2 months (hit 400,000m yesterday), and while my longer times have steadily come down, my 500 and LP remain about the same (although I still haven't added in intervals or fast training yet).

My thinking is that, at some point, my sprint times would severely hamper my ability to improve my longer distance times. I have been at Crossfit gyms and watched muscular guys of the same height sit down and pull a 1:20 500 after only a couple sessions on the erg ... seems like strength counts (not sure how it translates to distance though).

Since extensive distance rowing would make it harder to build muscle, would I be better suited to keep my rows short (no more than 10k) and focus on strength/muscle building for a while?

Simple answer yes. For 500 meter pure power plays a dominant role. Longer work on the erg will not help at all after the first stage. Work on squats, deadlifts, backrowing and do short work on the erg. But a strong 500 meter will not simply transfer to the longer work. The relation is not very strong between the two.

So work on both........

[Dickie]

I agree strength through weight lifting has a value in rowing. I have only been rowing for about three months. For the last few years I have done very little cardio, and almost exclusively lifted heavy weights. My times up to 300 metres (45 sec) reflect my strength, but I think even my longer rows are helped by this base. I agree with Moos3 that sprinting is really helpful as well. Also, if you watch someone like Rob Smith row you will see that sprints are an entirely different style of rowing. There is much less legs and much more back. I can still deadlift well over 500 lbs, and so it is much easier to get the flywheel going and keep your momentum going. As far as longer distances go, I would think, that weightlifting would have less and less impact. Look at the body types doing the great short distances. Rob Smith and company are very large strong men, but none of them are anywhere near the top in the 2000m plus races.

I disagree, I am now 55. I spent my youth powerlifting and some Olympic Lifting. I was never as string as you, my best deadlift was 475 and my best full squat was 450. I took up the erg 12 years ago, now closing in on 18,000,000 meters (I also rowed one year in college) and i thought my weight training would give me an advantage. To my horror, I met people who were much weaker than me and much lighter than me who could row circles around me.

Power on the erg is not a force applied, as in deadlifting 475 pounds, it is traditional power, defined as (Force X Distance) / Time. A very quick weak guy will always give a slow strong guy a run for his money on the erg.

Even in a short 100 meter sprint, I pull 16+ strokes to get a Time of 15.5 seconds and a Pace of 1:17.5, but according to Erg Monitor software I never exceed 100Kg of force, which is hardly what i would call strong. On a 500 meter sprint you are talking at least 50 strokes, powerlifting will not help with that.

Do a little experimenting. I horsepower = about 745 Watts. A 1:38 Pace on the Erg is about 1/2 horsepower. Do a 500 meter piece at 1:38 Pace and you will have generated 1/2 Horsepower for the 98 seconds on the erg. To achieve the same in deadlifting you need to lift 275 pounds 1 foot high every second for 98 seconds. Try it, I dare you.

When you deadlift 500 pounds you need to exert the full 500 pounds force before the weight even moves off the floor and when doing a miximal effort it takes several seconds to move the weight to its final height of 16 or so inches. When you start a pull on the erg, the handle moves when the first pound of force is applied and you have to move quickly to get any kind of resistance.

If you want to be strong, then powerlift. If you want good times on the erg, then row.

I find I am better at the shorter distances, all the powerlifting has left my cardio vascular system lacking.

Fred Dickie
M H 55yo
15.5 -100 1:29.8 - 500 3:14.9 - 1000 6:59.3 - 2000 30 min - 7557 1 hour - 14607

[BradL]

Hey Dickie, I think we are much closer to believing the same thing than you realize. There is some cross training benefit to weights, but to be good at rowing you have to row. Powerlifting is probably much less useful for rowing than Olympic lifting or speed circuit training. You get good at what you do. I found that out when in my 20s I went back into martial arts and found myself absolutely man handled by much weaker guys after my initial 20 second burst of energy. There is some benefit to rowing from strength or I would not be able to pull the short rows I do, and I pulled less than a 7:00 2000m in the second month of rowing, but that is also where I stuck. To really progress in rowing, I am now dedicating almost 90% of my efforts towards rowing. In a month or so, when I have reestablished my strength base, I will probably transfer my efforts to a speed circuit training type of lifting. As for longer distances, I agree with you weightlifting has a much smaller impact as the distance rises.

[Leo Young]

To perform optimally over 500 meters, you need a base of good strength (developed primarially around lifts like deadlift variations, squat variations and seated rows, or similar movements), decent speed (best developed with very short max speed sprints on the erg at very low drag, with 2 to 3 minutes rest between sprints), as well as a very good maxVO2 (I had a maxVO2 of 7.6/L min at a HR of 158 and a weight of 90kg, prior to specifically building my strength levels and lactic power in my lead up to my 1:10.5 for 500m), but most importantly you need great lactic power as well as lactic acid tolerance.

The more muscle mass you have (I added 12kg of lean muscle to attempt my 500m), the greater your lactic power potential, which you then need to develop with max effort intervals on the erg in the 20 to 30 second range, with 5 to 10 minutes active recovery between intervals. Lactic acid tolerance (LATol), on the other hand, is then well trained with slightly longer intervals (e.g. 30 to 45 seconds) with shorter rest intervals (30 to 45 seconds), as well as also being effectively trained doing maxVO2/HR efforts.

20 to 40 minute low intensity aerobic workouts 1.5 to 2 mmol lactate) on the days in between the high intensity strength, lactic and maxVO2 workouts will aid recovery and actually indirectly help improve your lactic acid toterance potential. However, avoid doing too many long slow distance workouts, which will have too much of a detrimental effect on your your critical fast twitch fibers. it's critical to do no more than 3 high intensity workouts a week, which includes any strength training, maxVoO2, anaerobic threshold, lactic power, or lactic tolerance training. So clever programing is critical.

Do maxVO2 training by doing intervals at max HR pace (either 3 to 5 minute intervals with 3 to 5 minutes active recovery, or alternatively over 3 to 5 minutes build HR and pace to up around your anaerobic threshold or max lactate steady state pace and then sit at max HR pace for for 1.5 to 3 minutes, depending on fitness level), as well as doing some training sessions where you spend 15 to 30 minutes at your anaerobic threshold (AnT) or max lactate steady state pace (MLSS). A good combo AnT/maxVO2/LATol session is after a 15 minute warm-up, do a 20 minute effort where you build to AnT over the first 3 mintutes or so, then spend 15 minutes at AnT/MLSS pace and then go to maxVO2 (max HR) pace for the final 1.5 to 3 minutes.

[BradL]

Hi Leo,

I would think that your response would have to be taken as a very educated, nearly definitive answer. Your record is certainly an amazing accomplishment. My goal for next year is to get under 1:20 for 500m. I have slowly attempting to increase the time that I can pull my maximum which is roughly 1:13 to 1:14 and hold it. I can now hold this sprint for about 45 seconds (roughly 300 metres). Is this a good way to train? Also, I am lifting heavy only once a week, focusing on squats and deadlifts. Would you recommend basic weightlifting where you focus on heavy weights for lesser reps, or would you say endurance training of 12 plus reps is more beneficial? Unfortunately, I feel I may be coming into this game a little late challenge much lower than 1:20, but I certainly will give it a try. Also, I just started the Pete Plan (I am basically a novice rower) and I am going to follow it for the next 18 weeks or so and I think I should establish a rowing base, but would you say It would be reasonable to replace one of the interval rows with something along the lines of your sprint training, or should I wait? Some time in late March, I would like to try to really ramp up my shorter distances, and I will give your program a full go at that time. Thank you very much for your input.

[NavigationHazard]

Cheers - if there's one thing Leo left out, I'd say it's advice on trialling. IMO 500s are short enough that they can be repeated fairly frequently, albeit not 100% trial efforts (these need to be built up to and recovered from). And I think that experience counts for a lot when you're trying to drop your time. That'[s especially true for starts, I believe. The quicker you can get down to the pace you want to be at over the bulk of the 500 the better. Thus it's to your advantage to work out a short-slide start sequence that'll allow you to trade rate for pace, and practice it until it's second nature. My experience suggests something more extreme than you'd use in a boat: 1/4-slide/ 1/2-slide/ 1/2-slide/ 1/2-slide/ 3/4-slide/ full or some such. But exactly how that works is likely to depend on your limb length, the DF you're using in your trialling, your upper-body strength vis-a-vis your legs, and your ability to get back up the slide quickly on the recoveries.

If you're reading this, Leo, what did you use?

[BradL]

That is good advice Nav. I found that time trialing the 500m was not near as grueling as the the longer pulls, and I think there is nothing like pulling a distance to get an understand your pacing and ability. Also, thanks for the start info. I have come to realize that a good start is integral. I actually have a better average time for the 250m and 300m than the 100m because it takes me a while to get going. I have been rowing my 500m on setting 10 which is about 195 df on my machine. I too would be very interested in what Leo, and you think the optimum setting would be. Also, I see that good 500m guys row at over 50spm. I tend to be falling off the rower and losing all form at this pace.

By the way congratulations on your effort at BIRC.

[Leo Young]

Cheers - if there's one thing Leo left out, I'd say it's advice on trialling. IMO 500s are short enough that they can be repeated fairly frequently, albeit not 100% trial efforts (these need to be built up to and recovered from).

Whilst I think that's true for most competeitive rowers, as a 500 meter time trial will be far less taxing than a 2000 meter effort, if you train specifically and effectively for sprint distances, then a 500 meter time trial becomes far more taxing as your lactic power and consequently your ability to produce lactate improves.

Whilst rowers certianly tend to have superior lactic power (the maximal energy producing capacity of the lactic energy system) compared to many other endurance groups, their lactic power is nevertheless is severly blunted due to the high volume of endurance training they do. This is not to be confused with lactate tolerance (the ability to buffer lactate and tolerate high accumulated lactate levels), which is generally exceptionaly well developed in rowers.

But as you incorporate substantial maximal intensity short duration intervals (5 to 30 seconds) into your training, with significant active recovery (3 to 10 minutes), as well as increasing strength training and muscle mass, whilst simultaneously reducing the volume of endurance training, then your lactic power is maximised and providing you also maintain a good maxVO2 and also develop high lactate tolerance, then your 500 meter times will improve significantly, but consequently so will the amount of pain you are potentially capable of suffering increase and the necessity for more recovery. Unfortunately, with great lactic maximal lactic power comes great pain.

When I trained specifically for 500 meters, I rarely did maximal efforts over 250 meters (of which I did many), with only a single one minute time trial in the three month lead up to my successful record attempt.

The quicker you can get down to the pace you want to be at over the bulk of the 500 the better. Thus it's to your advantage to work out a short-slide start sequence that'll allow you to trade rate for pace, and practice it until it's second nature. My experience suggests something more extreme than you'd use in a boat: 1/4-slide/ 1/2-slide/ 1/2-slide/ 1/2-slide/ 3/4-slide/ full or some such. But exactly how that works is likely to depend on your limb length, the DF you're using in your trialling, your upper-body strength vis-a-vis your legs, and your ability to get back up the slide quickly on the recoveries. If you're reading this, Leo, what did you use?

I think I probably did my 500 meter start with something like: 3/4, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, full stroke, but I had to be careful not to go below 1:07 on the model B erg, which I hit on the 3rd or 4th stroke, before slowing settling back to sitting on 1:08 to 1:09 for the rest of the rest of the effort, with the odd 1:10 stroke.

I have been rowing my 500m on setting 10 which is about 195 df on my machine. I too would be very interested in what Leo, and you think the optimum setting would be.

The model B didn't have the abilty to give you a drag factor readout. I did my 500 on the highest gearing (small cog / vent open), which I believe supposedly produces a drag factor at least as high or perhaps a little higher than what can currently be acheived on the model C, D or E, so 200++. But I did a lot of my training on the lowest possible drag (including almost fully covering the cage), in order to improve speed and technique efficiency.

The optimal setting is specific to the the user though, being influenced amongst other factors, by bodyweight (positive correlation, due to higher potential power), limb length (inverse correlation, as longer limbs increase the effective gearing, whilst shorter limbs lower the effective gearing), muscle fiber twitch profile, technique/catch efficiency (the better your technique and the faster your catch, the lower the drag you can use), rating (inverse correlation), stroke length (inverse correlation) strength (positive correlation), speed capacity (inverse correlation) and of course gearing familiarisation. That all being said, you should use the lowest drag factor you can develop sufficient power with and you certainly should include plenty of training at very low drag factors, in order to refine your technique efficiency and the speed of you catch.

[luckylindy]

Leo - thanks for the great ideas and feedback, your POV is really interesting. I had no idea that anyone ever rowed a 1:10 500m before ... was this recently? Regardless, WOW.

[LincolnB]

I've been competing in Olympic Weightlifting for 10 years now. I also consistently rank in the top 5 for my age/division in the 500m row. It's not a coincidence. In the 5 years I've owned my C2 I've probably only rowed about a million meters total.

There's a big difference in power output between powerlifting (a misnomer) and Olympic Weightlifting. An elite powerlifter may exert about 1,000 watts on their heaviest deadlift but an elite Olympic weightlifter will generate about 4,000 watts on the heaviest clean. The clean and the deadlift are similar movements but a clean is done with about 60% of the weight at over 6 times the velocity.

[luckylindy]

There's a big difference in power output between powerlifting (a misnomer) and Olympic Weightlifting. An elite powerlifter may exert about 1,000 watts on their heaviest deadlift but an elite Olympic weightlifter will generate about 4,000 watts on the heaviest clean. The clean and the deadlift are similar movements but a clean is done with about 60% of the weight at over 6 times the velocity.

That's really interesting. Any thoughts on gym exercises to improve velocity and/or power?

[Leo Young]

Leo - thanks for the great ideas and feedback, your POV is really interesting. I had no idea that anyone ever rowed a 1:10 500m before ... was this recently? Regardless, WOW.

The record was set 20 years ago now. It's about time someone gave it a nudge and a big fit Olympic or Power lifter would be a good candidate to potentially do it.