New Wolverine Plan Thread

[Bob S.]

I'm not sure the younger readers will get your movie reference. :wink:

-Neil

Well it certainly left this much, much older reader in the dark.

Bob S.

P.S. Great thread, by the way, and many thanks to Mike Caviston for so generously contributing. It is a pleasure to read this after the stupid wrangling that I have been seeing on the U.K. forum. B.

[Bill Moore]

Bob - there is a limit to who would know that 1986 flick. I turned 21 that year and only saw it once (while I was completely hammered) and yet that Bueller?...Bueller?... line is almost the only thing I remembered.

Mike & Patrick - perhaps my ascending interval suggestion comes from my sick & twisted time as an Army OCS teacher. I know some of Mike's current trainees could handle this. There were some Seals when I was at Jump School and they were some of the most crazy and fit athletes I've ever seen.

The overload principle is what will need to apply here either way. I have a swimming/water polo & weight lifting background, so my base of understanding comes from there. In swimming in the 80s, it was a base of long distance even for sprinters, and then short rest intervals to get the speed work done. In lifting, there's a warmup set or two before one can get to max effort and you have spotter. Once you hit muscle failure on one set, the next set with a spotter will be less reps, less weight, or more assistance from the spotter. That's different than the sustained intensity I'm doing for even split L1 workouts. That 3rd rep on a 4x1k is less than max effort because we generally hold a bit back to complete the 4th workout. With variable length intervals, the pace will have to vary to get to that maximum sustained intensity in order to have the overload principle apply. (And it's a steeper perceived effort for the ascending set). For descending, you have to keep going faster, while mentally holding back to finish the workout. (That may not be what's intended, but who doesn't honestly hold back on the third rep of the 4x1k? In swimming, that was my "third lap" from my 100yd races which was always the toughest mentally but also the biggest area for improvement to be able to win.) I guess I'm just differentiating between maximum effort and maximum sustained effort over a particular distance.

I'm sure the team was grumpy after the ascending L2 Pyramid. My waterpolo coach made us to 25 fly followed by 25 underwater for 10 reps, and if we popped up on the underwater lap, the count started over. We all went to Pizza Bob's afterward and shared too many pitchers of beer that night.

[Nosmo]

Taking a shot at answering your (or Mike/Ben Stein's) question on the suitability of 12x333m or 3x1333m for L1. I recall the WP distance guideline was intervals of 250m to 1km, though longer is possible. The key factor is ability to maintain intensity in each piece at your reference 2K pace or better. So, 12x333m should be no problem, but 3x1333m might be tough. If holding the same or better pace than a maximal 2K through all 3 1333m intervals does not "challenge your will to live", then it might be time to do a 2K test and reset your reference.

I think somewhere Mike also said that he tried 250m intervals and they weren't long enough for 2K pieces--they didn't provide enough endurance for the 2K. AFAIK he only uses 250m as part of a variable interval workout. 12x333m I would think would be a too short also.

3x1333m is a bit tough. I would think you would want to choose a distance that would give you the same average pace as 4x1000. 3x1250 might be a better Idea. Although I would also think you would only want to do these if it was a long way from a competition or training for a 5K race. Otherwise your probably better off with just doing 3x1000 faster.

[pmacaula]

MC has said very little about adapting the WP to other distances. What I recall him writing can be summarized as follows:

1) for 5K he would not change the WP at all.

...I'd be interested to hear what others think.

Have not seen anyone else respond to this earlier post by Nosmo & would like to resurface it in the context of preparing for the fall OTW Head Race season.

While race time for the HOCR varies significantly based on boat type, a 5K erg is roughly in line with the approx 3 mile course distance.

After the winter erg regatta season, am thinking of rowing through the spring/summer & doing a few masters' sprint events, but am more interested in the fall head regattas.

Has anyone used the WP or a modified version for a combination OTW/Erg training program aiming at regattas such as the Head of the Charles ?
Results ? Observations ?

Bob S. - We all get dated one way or another.
Mike C's movie reference is to a scene in Ferris Bueller's Day Off.
On the UK forum, someone was asking what BFF stood for (Best Friend Forever). Everyone under 30 (& most parents of tweens & teens) knows this one.

Cheers. Patrick.

[Nosmo]

On the UK forum, someone was asking what BFF stood for (Best Friend Forever). Everyone under 30 (& most parents of tweens & teens) knows this one.

Yes but no one seemed to know who MC was referring too, including Pete. I thought it was obvious from the thread but I guess it wasn't.

[Snail Space]

I began with a 40' L4 last night (172/176/172/176).
...
My actual strokes were 170/180/170/180.

Bill, how do you know how many strokes you actually took in each segment?
Did you mentally count them?

Cheers
Dave

[Snail Space]

After a break, intervals always feel awful so I usually take some time doing longer stuff first.

I do exactly the same, so I'm interested in the responses. I'm in the middle of an enforced 3 week break - I'm dreading starting off again.

Cheers
Dave

[Bill Moore]

I began with a 40' L4 last night (172/176/172/176).
...
My actual strokes were 170/180/170/180.

Bill, how do you know how many strokes you actually took in each segment?
Did you mentally count them?

Cheers
Dave

No, I have an assistant count them for me!

I use the RowPro Session Report, which gives me an Average DPS (to the nearest 1/10th of a meter) for each segment. So total distance divided by DPS = # of strokes. The rounding error is less than 1 stroke, so 4 strokes over for the 176 segment is too many strokes. It felt like the 20 rate interval went a little fast after the 16/18 work, so I knew I had to focus on the segments that included the 20 rate interval.

(Ah, screw it. Let me go back to 5 minutes on the gym's rower on "level 10" with an underhand grip before I get to the "real workout". )

[Snail Space]

(Ah, screw it. Let me go back to 5 minutes on the gym's rower on "level 10" with an underhand grip before I get to the "real workout". )

Hey, don't joke, Bill. Last weekend we stayed overnight at a hotel for a family gathering. I had looked up the hotel on the internet before we went and was delighted that it had a swimming pool and a gym (with a rowing machine). The rowing machine had a PM3, which made my smile even bigger. However, when I checked the DF it was 84 on lever position 10.

Disappointed, but undeterred, I set off on a 30 minute row. I was hugely surprised by how difficult it was, especially by how hard and quickly I had to drive with my legs. The next day my thighs were actually aching. What a softie I must be!

I was amused by two comments made by the gym attendant: "You should row at a faster rate", which was predictable, and "Excuse me, sir, you are sweating onto the carpet".

Cheers
Dave

[Snail Space]

I have the spreadsheet that calculates the workouts. There are notes from Chris Galley, so if we can find him, we should be able to find the original spreadsheet, since I may have made changes to it.

I created a spreadsheet to create level 4 workouts that anyone is welcome to try:

http://www.eudemonia.co.uk/wplevel4.xls

First put your 2K time in the cell at the bottom left. Then choose a level 4 sequence from the left hand column and it shows SPM, pace, and duration for each segment. It calculates the intended distance that should be covered for that sequence, and also a cumulative distance for the session thus far. Delete any redundant rows, but use "File/Save as ..." so that the original file is kept. The bottom left cell then shows the total number of strokes for the whole training session.

The file includes Mike's subsequent odd-number SPM sequences.

Two caveats (there may be more):
1. The spreadsheet contains code (that I have written myself, so I know it is safe) and so the file will generate a macro warning when opened. I am confident that there is no danger in it, but you will have to choose yourself.

2. I have worked out the pace for each segment using a formula
[2Kpace*((152-(SPM*2))/96)], rather than a lookup table, so the suggested pace may vary from Mike's tables by a second (because I have retained the decimal component rather than rounding to an integer). However, the formula was derived from the extended L4 tables published on machars.net, and sourced from Mike himself (allegedly).

Hope MC isn't upset or offended by this, but if he is I shall withdraw it immediately.

Cheers
Dave

[Yankeerunner]

Good thread.

I'm sorry that I don't have anything constructive to add, but I'd like you all to know that I enjoy reading it and hope to chip in at some point if I can contribute something worthwhile. Until then, I'll be an interested lurker.

[jamesg]

I must say I very much like the L4s and think that the basis (constant and fairly high work per stroke) is essential for good technique and fitness training, even on limited time.

I use a simple mechanism: take my last 2k "power" and divide by the average rating in that 2k; use the same ratio at all ratings.

My last 2k was slow, 7:40 or 230W@25, so around 9W'. This pushes me somewhat, if used 18-20-22, so I think it's effective. Can someone who wants to race use this; or will need something more refined?

[nharrigan]

I have the spreadsheet that calculates the workouts. There are notes from Chris Galley, so if we can find him, we should be able to find the original spreadsheet, since I may have made changes to it.

I created a spreadsheet to create level 4 workouts that anyone is welcome to try:

http://www.eudemonia.co.uk/wplevel4.xls

First put your 2K time in the cell at the bottom left. Then choose a level 4 sequence from the left hand column and it shows SPM, pace, and duration for each segment. It calculates the intended distance that should be covered for that sequence, and also a cumulative distance for the session thus far. Delete any redundant rows, but use "File/Save as ..." so that the original file is kept. The bottom left cell then shows the total number of strokes for the whole training session.

The file includes Mike's subsequent odd-number SPM sequences.

Two caveats (there may be more):
1. The spreadsheet contains code (that I have written myself, so I know it is safe) and so the file will generate a macro warning when opened. I am confident that there is no danger in it, but you will have to choose yourself.

2. I have worked out the pace for each segment using a formula
[2Kpace*((152-(SPM*2))/96)], rather than a lookup table, so the suggested pace may vary from Mike's tables by a second (because I have retained the decimal component rather than rounding to an integer). However, the formula was derived from the extended L4 tables published on machars.net, and sourced from Mike himself (allegedly).

Hope MC isn't upset or offended by this, but if he is I shall withdraw it immediately.

Cheers
Dave

Dave- Thanks for posting the spreadsheet. Do you do ten 10min. segments of L4

-Neil

[Nosmo]

2. I have worked out the pace for each segment using a formula
[2Kpace*((152-(SPM*2))/96)], rather than a lookup table, so the suggested pace may vary from Mike's tables by a second (because I have retained the decimal component rather than rounding to an integer). However, the formula was derived from the extended L4 tables published on machars.net, and sourced from Mike himself (allegedly).

Hope MC isn't upset or offended by this, but if he is I shall withdraw it immediately.

MC alternative method for doing L4 workouts passed on watts, start with 50% watts at 16 spm then add a fixed amount of watts for each change in spm (3% of 2K watts for each spm?--don't recall exactly), produces a bigger discrepancy with the table then your formula does, so I think you are pretty safe.

[Snail Space]

Dave- Thanks for posting the spreadsheet. Do you do ten 10min. segments of L4

Only for my warm-up: for the main workout I ...


No, my favourite sessions are either 40' or 60'. I put 10 rows in so that I could accomodate 10 x 6' sequences if necessary. I find it easier to delete redundant rows after I have designed my workout than to add them later. It's a minor inconvenience, I know, but that is why I start off with 10 rows.

Cheers
Dave