Leg Drive

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » June 18th, 2004, 3:52 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (John Rupp @ Jun 17 2004, 07:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Rich, It will be interesting to see if you get a reply. What do you have to say about Eskild Ebbesen rowing at 41.3 spm and 8 mps? Based on that, he would do a 10k at > 38 spm. </td></tr></table> John-- Based on _your_ reasoning, Eskilid would do that, but I wouldn't reason that way. It would be interesting to see what Eskild does in fact. This is how I would reason. At close to 42 spm, Eskild rows a 2K at 11 SPI. That is not unusual at all. His high rate is, though. Based on this same SPI, Eskild would row his 18K in an hour at 32 spm. This is reasonable, and I would guess, his practice. If it is, he is also just establishing a standard stroking power (11 SPI) and then adjusting the rate to the distance. I don't know what Eskilid rows for 10K in terms of time/pace, do you? 11 SPI gives you these rates and paces: 42 spm (1:31.2) 40 spm (1:32.7) 38 spm (1:34.3) 36 spm (1:36.0) 34 spm (1:37.8) 32 spm (1:39.8) 30 spm (1:42.0) 28 spm (1:44.2) 26 spm (1:47.0) 24 spm (1:50.0) 22 spm (1:53.1) 20 spm (1:56.7) 18 spm (2:01.0) These are about the rates and paces that I have been aiming for (and will continue to aim for) in my low drag, strapless rowing this summer. At 36 spm, 11 SPI is a 6:24 2K. I don't know whether I can achieve this, but this is my goal, if it is possible. So I am trying to establish a stroke with this much power. Eskild rows at 11 SPI and a _very_ high rate for a 2K. (I would guess that) Freed rows at 10 SPI and a much lower rate for a 2K. (I would guess that) they both row about 32 spm for 10K, but that Eskild rows at 11 SPI and Freed at 10 SPI. ranger

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » June 18th, 2004, 3:04 pm

Rich, Watts are the measure of Power, which is Energy (Joules) divided by Time (in seconds). SPI can be considered to be the energy (Joules) you give to the flywheel for each stroke. However, SPI is not representative of power output, until you divide it by time and get Watts. The monitor then converts these Watts to the Pace reading on the display. Thus more Power = more Watts = faster Pace. Conversely, the Pace display shows your power output quite precisely.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » June 18th, 2004, 3:15 pm

Eskild Ebbesen rows at 8 meters per stroke for his 2k's, which is 41.3 meters per stroke for a 6:03.2 for the 2k. His 6:03.2 for the 2k, and 18,000 meters (?) for the hour, predicts a 32:29 for the 10k. This is 1:37.5 pace. With the same 8 meters per stroke as in his 2k, this is: 1250 strokes / 32:29 = 38.5 strokes per minute.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » June 18th, 2004, 3:17 pm

18000 meters for an hour is 1:40.0 pace, and 37.5 strokes per minute.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » June 18th, 2004, 3:25 pm

Ebbesen's 8 meters per stroke gives you these rates and paces: 42 spm / 1:29.3 40 spm / 1:33.8 38 spm / 1:38.7 36 spm / 1:44.2 34 spm / 1:50.3 32 spm / 1:57.2 30 spm / 2:05.0

[old] dadams · Post by **[old] dadams** » June 18th, 2004, 3:35 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (John Rupp @ Jun 12 2004, 03:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Eskild Ebbesen has a continuous rocking motion, balls of feet to heels and back, every stroke. Rocking, rocking, back and forth, back and forth. Rob Waddell also goes up on the balls of his feet at the catch, then back down through on his heels again.  </td></tr></table> Not that I'm anything special, but I do the same. Dwayne

[old] dadams · Post by **[old] dadams** » June 18th, 2004, 3:41 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (John Rupp @ Jun 18 2004, 02:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> 18000 meters for an hour is 1:40.0 pace, and 37.5 strokes per minute.  </td></tr></table> It doesn't necessarily need to be 37+. I did my 18000+ at a 30-32, and still maintained a ~1:40 pace. Dwayne

[old] eurofoot13 · Post by **[old] eurofoot13** » June 18th, 2004, 4:36 pm

I'm confused - why wouldn't someone want to try and get as many MPS as they can....why would ebbeson row at only 8. it seems as though he would have room to increase it as he's ?6'6? could someone please explain this to me?

[old] Rocket Roy · Post by **[old] Rocket Roy** » June 18th, 2004, 5:02 pm

from what I can see it's sometimes easier to rate high and pull lower spi, ie, 40spm at 8mps , or 32spm at 11mps, i think you either do 1 or the other and hopefully not 32 spm at 8mps I think some people find it easier to rate high and pull light , rather than rate low and pull heavy.

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » June 18th, 2004, 5:50 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (dadams @ Jun 18 2004, 02:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (John Rupp @ Jun 18 2004, 02:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> 18000 meters for an hour is 1:40.0 pace, and 37.5 strokes per minute.  </td></tr></table> It doesn't necessarily need to be 37+. I did my 18000+ at a 30-32, and still maintained a ~1:40 pace. Dwayne </td></tr></table> Exactly. To my knowledge, no one has rowed a fast 10K at 38-39 spm. Very few fast rowers row a 2K at that rate. My guess is that Eskild and Freed row at about 32 spm for a 10K. That is, they use the same basic stroke they use for the 2K (i.e., the same SPI) and then just slow down the rate so that they can carry the same stroke over a longer distance. ranger

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » June 18th, 2004, 6:01 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Rocket Roy @ Jun 18 2004, 04:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>from what I can see it's sometimes easier to rate high and pull lower spi, ie, 40spm at 8mps , or 32spm at 11mps, i think you either do 1 or the other and hopefully not 32 spm at 8mps I think some people find it easier to rate high and pull light , rather than rate low and pull heavy. </td></tr></table> All the great rowers "pull heavy." Eskild does not "pull light." He pulls at 11 SPI. This is plenty heavy. He also pulls at 42 spm, which means that he goes very fast, too. Many rowers do much of their training at 6-7 SPI. This is not very productive, I think. It doesn't prepare you for the stroking power needed to row a 2K. Even at 40 spm, 6 SPI is only a 7:35 2K. 7 SPI is only a 7:10 2K. I think the best way to train is to do all of your rowing at or above the stroking power you use in the 2K. In the off season, row at 2K (stroking) power. In the racing season, row at 1K (stroking) power (i.e., the stroking power you use in the 1K). ranger

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » June 18th, 2004, 9:24 pm

Euro, I think Ebbesen is around 6' tall? Maybe someone can clarify this. Dwayne, Yes but you're a heavyweight, and how tall are you? It is typical for HWT's to go 9.5 to 10 meters per stroke, as HWT's have more weight to lean on the handle, and more stroke length to carry the speed through more distance. However, long time world record holder Eskild Ebbesen is in the lightweight category. At the 2004 Crash B's, although Ebbesen rowed at 8 mps and Pavel Shurmei rowed at 9.7 meters per stroke, both rowers had the same identical 43.5 drive ratios.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » June 18th, 2004, 9:30 pm

Rich, I think Cran, on this forum, has rated quite high for his distance PB's. He might want to comment on this -- or then, he might want to not comment on this. You've lost me with why anyone would want to pull heavier at any given speed. I'm sure that is exactly NOT something that Ebbesen, Freed, et all strive to do. To the contrary, based on Freed's comments he strives to get the monitor going faster with less effort.

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » June 19th, 2004, 12:11 am

I tried a 12k today at my hoped for 2k SPI today which called for me to row at about 1:54/55 at 19SPM. I found this pretty tough going and WAS rowing in water by the end of it. I dont know if I could cope rowing at this effort day after day for my distance work. It would mean I would row a 10k PB at 23spm which for me is sub 36min and dont think I could. Is this then something I need to work on, a weakness to overcome. I seem to have reasonable power at the moment even tho I have done no fast wok of late, as a bit of fun in the gym for a challenge board they have put up I rowed 2min comfortably at about 1:29.* pace and then was able to do another 8k in the low 1:50's to get in my K's for the day.

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » June 19th, 2004, 4:02 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> I tried a 12k today at my hoped for 2k SPI today which called for me to row at about 1:54/55 at 19SPM. I found this pretty tough going and WAS rowing in water by the end of it. I dont know if I could cope rowing at this effort day after day for my distance work. It would mean I would row a 10k PB at 23spm which for me is sub 36min and dont think I could.  </td></tr></table> George-- Yes, this sort of rowing is _very_ hard going. This is what I am doing from day to day--strapless. In essence, this type of rowing is interval training at the most minute interval--the stroke drive. Once you know the leg-back-arm speed and coordination needed for the stroke drive in the 2K, you just do this on every stroke that you take, no matter what distance your are rowing, adjusting the pace so that you can tolerate the level of the work. As you slow down the rate, you increase the rest you take between strokes/intervals. As you up the rate, you decrease the rest you take between strokes/intervals. This is just what many people do in their race preparation with 8 x 500m interval workouts at 2K or below. They slowly reduce their rest time between intervals in the workout as they approach the date of the competition. The advantage of this type of rowing, I think, is just the general advantage of interval training over various sorts of continuous training, as this has been discovered in other sports, too. It (progressively) prepares the muscles and CV system for the work that needs to be done in the race that needs to be rowed (the 2K). The essence of the 2K is endurance and relaxation with power. Rowing at 2K power all of the time gets you used to the power. Rowing at 2K power over long distances gives you endurance with power. Then in the pre-race preparation period (6 weeks or so), if you up your rowing to 1K power (and then return to 2K power when you race), 2K power will feel very relaxed. Result of this sort of training: power, endurance, relaxation. Zoom! That you would row a 10K pb at 23 spm using 2K power just suggests that your endurance is not yet fully developed. You should row a 10K pb at about 28 spm using 2K power if your endurance is fully developed. That you find rowing at 2K power difficult over longer distances shows that your technique needs work. As your technique improves, you reach high stroking power with less and less effort. I also used to find slow stroke rate rowing impossible because my technique was wretched. The only way that I could up the pace was my upping the rate. Now I find slow spm rowing entirely natural. No problem. I generate more power more easily and naturally within the motion of the stroke itself. No need to row at a high rate in order to work efficiently and go fast (at least in training). If you do a lot of strapless rowing, you will learn to use your legs more and more and with this to achieve proper timing and body positioning with your back and arms. As you do, your stroke will get more and more powerful with less and less effort. Most of the best rowers can row at 2K power and 18-20 spm for as much as 30K, perhaps even a marathon. This is what I am trying to work up to this summer. I am also upping the ante by rowing strapless, which is more difficult yet and forces good technique. This sort of rowing certainly takes some getting used to. If you do this sort of rowing consistently, I think you need some consistent way of shaking off the effects from day to day. The work is indeed hard on the muscular system. I use my skipping and running for this. I always do at least as much easy skipping and running as I do rowing. This is especially effective if done as a warm up. I am often pretty stiff when I begin my workouts, but after skipping rope or running for an hour or so, I loosen up and feel entirely refreshed. Then I am ready to go after the high power rowing with renewed energy and motivation. At stroke rates of 25-30 or so, rowing at 2K power is much the same as rowing at 10MPS. Caviston's Level 4 rowing in the Wolverine Plan is rowing at 1K power (2K power + 2 SPI or so) and can be used in the racing season for race preparation along with various sorts of standard interval training. ranger

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