Handle Bio-mechanics

[Byron Drachman]

Hi Robert,

I think the little guard to avoid getting a long shirt tail tangled with the wheels would be especially nice for gyms. I remember getting my long shirt getting stuck under the seat when I first started erging and I have seen the same thing with other newbies.

I also made a handle with D-grips, not as well done as yours, so I could have my hands a little more vertical and a little more separated. That solved my problem of sore elbows. The wooden handles in my D-grips rotate and they click when fully squared or fully feathered so I practice feathering when erging. I have also changed the angle and position of the footboard on my C2 so that it matches what I have in my single. I also use a boat seat that can be set to be unstable for extra core work on my C2. When I made the seat that can be set to be stable or unstable I didn't know that CorePerform was available. It is an easy change to switch back to all original equipment if I ever want to rank a piece.

I sense a kindred spirit.

Byron

[Bob S.]

And the hand-over-hand style is at most a centimeter apart, not 5-10cm.

If you mean the gap - O.K., but point to equivalent point, let's say the centers of the oar handles, 5-10cm is the right range. The oar handles alone require over 3cm. The one hand in front of the other is still an asymmetry. You don't have that in a proper boat, i.e. a practical, working skiff without the fancy rigger doodads that them there skinny excuses for a boat have.

Bob S.

[bloomp]

And the hand-over-hand style is at most a centimeter apart, not 5-10cm.

If you mean the gap - O.K., but point to equivalent point, let's say the centers of the oar handles, 5-10cm is the right range. The oar handles alone require over 3cm. The one hand in front of the other is still an asymmetry. You don't have that in a proper boat, i.e. a practical, working skiff without the fancy rigger doodads that them there skinny excuses for a boat have.

Bob S.

True - but do you sincerely feel that those few centimeters makes a difference? It's the same muscles doing the work and they just know that the handle isn't too high or too low. The handles are at approximately the best place for the back muscles to do work, and the abdominals to transfer energy from the leg drive to the torso. It's parallel to the plane of the arms thus it's the optimum work angle (cos 180 (or 0) = +/-1). Once you pull in too high you lose energy, and too low you lose energy and risk hurting yourself (picture a hunched over rower).

So the position of the handles is optimal for producing power, but does that asymmetry matter? I say no. But the use of the Slidewinder looks to provide a much wider gap than any feasable sculling setup.

[Slidewinder]

Bloomp:
Good for you for knowing the names of all those muscles. Perhaps you can educate me.
If when using the Slidewinder handle I hold the handgrip in a vertical position throughout the stroke, it is a non-rowing, but completely viable exercise, and one that is not possible with the stock handle. It would seem to me that this non-rowing stroke geometry would engage different muscles than the horizontal hand position that must be maintained with the stock handle - just as a forward-hand and a backward-hand chin-up are two different exercises.

Re: Hand over hand position.
Whether the hands are one centimetre apart or 5-10 centimetres apart, the main point is that this action is not at all possible with the stock handle and definitely would engage the muscles used in an actual on-water sculling stroke. I will leave it to you to name those muscles.
Robert

[Slidewinder]

Bob S:
Re: "As far as angulation of the wrist is concerned - what angulation?"
Do you have any old C2 newsletters? If so, look through them. You'll find many photos of individuals in the "praying mantis" position at the completion of the stroke. Posters have criticized my technique, but at no time in the referenced video do I look like praying mantis. It won't happen using the Slidewinder handle.
Robert

[Slidewinder]

Tabbrows:
Yours is the first comment I've received dismissing the mechanical foot restraint demonstrated in the video. It solves two problems:

Loosening foot straps - Some people complain that this frequently occurs when they exercise. I have never experienced this problem, but clearly it can happen. The mechanical foot restraint ensures that it never will.

Convenience - Get on the machine, put your feet in place, drop the crosspiece down, and you are ready to go. Finished the workout? Snap the lever, lift the crosspiece, pull your feet out, and it's ready for the next person, regardless of their foot size.

It's clean, simple, elegant. What could possibly be your objection?
Robert

[Bob S.]

True - but do you sincerely feel that those few centimeters makes a difference?

No. Like I said in my first comments on this, I regard it as a minor asymmetry. It is esthetically displeasing (to me), but unlikely to be a physiological problem. The asymmetry of sweep rowing is another matter. I have seen a couple of forum messages that mentioned problems with that. Incidentally it is far worse for racing canoeists. They always have the same knee down and paddle on just one side, so it is an extremely asymmetric movement.

Once you pull in too high you lose energy, and too low you lose energy and risk hurting yourself (picture a hunched over rower).

I am a hunched over rower. Nowadays, my kyphosis is rather severe, what with osteoporosis and all. but it was observable even in my early teens. Once, during my college rowing days, I overheard our trainer commenting on it to someone else, saying something to the effect that a back like that is too weak to row. Fortunately, my coach didn't have the same opinion and I was a four-year letterman.

So the position of the handles is optimal for producing power, but does that asymmetry matter? I say no. But the use of the Slidewinder looks to provide a much wider gap than any feasable sculling setup.

I didn't study the video other than to notice that his technique was not something to emulate.

As far as the handle is concerned, it looks to be well-designed and beautifully executed. The inventor/maker is to be congratulated on the fine job that he did. I have no doubt but that a lot of those who erg for exercise and for competition as well would find it useful. It certainly provides some versatility to the erg. I am just not convinced that it is of much benefit to OTW rowers who use the erg as a supplement to their boat rowing.

Slidewinder stated that the reason he invented it was because of wrist angularity. In a recent message I commented that I didn't have that problem and wondered if it really was a problem. In retrospect, I can see that it might well be a problem for some. In my case, I have my hands at the far ends of the handle, with the little fingers actually out on the curve of the end, and I keep my elbows close to my body, so there is little or no lateral movement of my arms. Also the ends of my shoulders are no further apart than the ends of the handle. I have a narrow torso, with a rib cage that has an almost circular cross section rather than elliptical as is the usual case. Some one with broader shoulders and a rib cage with a long transverse axis might well have a lot more lateral movemnent of the arms.

Bob S.

[Bob S.]

Bob S:
Re: "As far as angulation of the wrist is concerned - what angulation?"
Do you have any old C2 newsletters? If so, look through them. You'll find many photos of individuals in the "praying mantis" position at the completion of the stroke. Posters have criticized my technique, but at no time in the referenced video do I look like praying mantis. It won't happen using the Slidewinder handle.
Robert

I have seen the praying mantis in action and have been sorely tempted to warn some one about it but I know that unasked for advice is usually not well received. I have never seen any need for it with any handle and any competent instructor would warn a beginner to keep the arm and hand well aligned. I hadn't realized that you meant an up or down angulation. I was just thinking of lateral. There is no real reason for anyone to drop or raise the wrists with the C2 handle that comes with the machine. In a boat, a wrist drop is one way of feathering, but never on the drive, just for the recovery when there is no pull involved.

If an erger is completing a stroke with elevated wrists, he or she is either pulling the handle in too high or keeping the elbows too low instead of pulling them well back.

I apologize if my posts have come across as highly critical. As I said in another (very recent) post, I think that you have done a fine job and that I think that there are a number of people that would be happy to have the additional versatility that your design provides.

Bob S.

[bloomp]

True - but do you sincerely feel that those few centimeters makes a difference?

No. Like I said in my first comments on this, I regard it as a minor asymmetry. It is esthetically displeasing (to me), but unlikely to be a physiological problem. The asymmetry of sweep rowing is another matter. I have seen a couple of forum messages that mentioned problems with that. Incidentally it is far worse for racing canoeists. They always have the same knee down and paddle on just one side, so it is an extremely asymmetric movement.

Exactly. You have my complete agreement with respect to sweep rowing being much worse than most forms of exercise for asymmetry. That is why FISA recommends all rowers begin with sculling (symmetrical), then perhaps branch out to sweeping.

So the position of the handles is optimal for producing power, but does that asymmetry matter? I say no. But the use of the Slidewinder looks to provide a much wider gap than any feasable sculling setup.

I didn't study the video other than to notice that his technique was not something to emulate.

As far as the handle is concerned, it looks to be well-designed and beautifully executed. The inventor/maker is to be congratulated on the fine job that he did. I have no doubt but that a lot of those who erg for exercise and for competition as well would find it useful. It certainly provides some versatility to the erg. I am just not convinced that it is of much benefit to OTW rowers who use the erg as a supplement to their boat rowing.

Slidewinder stated that the reason he invented it was because of wrist angularity. In a recent message I commented that I didn't have that problem and wondered if it really was a problem. In retrospect, I can see that it might well be a problem for some. In my case, I have my hands at the far ends of the handle, with the little fingers actually out on the curve of the end, and I keep my elbows close to my body, so there is little or no lateral movement of my arms. Also the ends of my shoulders are no further apart than the ends of the handle. I have a narrow torso, with a rib cage that has an almost circular cross section rather than elliptical as is the usual case. Some one with broader shoulders and a rib cage with a long transverse axis might well have a lot more lateral movemnent of the arms.

Bob S.

Correct, in certain circumstances such a handle may help. But then there are other problems that should probably be corrected. And as for size, I'm smaller than Mike vB (something I pride myself in), so we're probably about the same build etc. I don't have any problems with the handle and row with my hands wide, thumbs not doing anything but sitting on top...

Slidewinder - There is NO difference in the muscles used in either way. It will feel different because of the different geometry and the muscles engaging at a slightly different angle, but the same muscles are used both ways. You mention the difference between a curl up and a pull up. The difference lies in the fact in one direction your biceps can be used more and the grip of your hands is stronger, but the exact same muscles are used. However, with your admittedly excellent creation, there is no difference in the muscles engaged, nor method of gripping.

[Slidewinder]

Bloomp:
Re: No difference in muscles engaged.
Of the several stroke geometries enabled by the Slidewinder handle, an exercise I particularly enjoy is this: Start at the catch with both hands turned inward past horizontal and then as the stroke progresses, smoothly rotate both hands, finishing the stroke with both hands palms in, and the handgrips in a true vertical.

I know this movement has nothing to do with rowing, but the pulling combined with the rotation sure feels good. Even if no different muscles are engaged as you contend, my body tells me that the movement just described, and enabled by the Slidewinder handle, engages those muscles differently than the movement dictated by the stock handle in which the hands are held in a static horizontal position throughout the stroke. Disregarding the fine points of how the muscles are being worked differently, it is hugely liberating to be able to move the hands out of that static stock handle position. One feels like a prisoner who has cast off the chains. There is a sense that, finally, the full potential of the C2 machine can be utilized.

Re: "What (scullers) do not do is pull the ... end of the oar alongside the torso at any point."

I don't enjoy being harsh, but this is a meaningless observation with respect to the Slidewinder handle.
It suggests that my hand position at the completion of the stroke is directly caused by the prototype handle. You must know that it is a result of my less than perfect technique and has nothing to do with the handle design. If you have an argument that my too-far-back hand position is directly caused by the handle, then please share it with us, otherwise I would appreciate it if we would not bog the discussion down with irrelevancies. Thankyou (and thankyou for the positive comments that you have made about my work).
Robert

[Slidewinder]

Citroen:
Please share with us what aspect(s) of the Slidewinder handle design you find "strange".
Robert

[Slidewinder]

Bob S:
You wrote, "By the way, you did not address the issue I raised of ergonometric problems with oars."
I didn't respond because I'm unclear of your point. Are you suggesting that because there are bio-mechanical flaws in actual rowing, that for realism, I should have incorporated those flaws into the handle design?
Robert

[Slidewinder]

kkishore:
In this forum I'm happy to discuss any technical aspects of the "Slidewinder" innovations, but it's not the place for business related exchanges.
It shouldn't irk you that there is no inventory, that no factory is churning out Slidewinder handles, that no operators are standing by to take yoiur call. Every invention starts with the first one - one light bulb, one telephone, one phonograph...

Did people complain to Edison, "How dare you show us that light bulb when you don't have ten million of them ready to sell!" No. They were thrilled to see this exciting new thing. So too, I'm offering everyone in this forum the pleasure of seeing this exciting new thing. Not quite Edison's light bulb perhaps, but for rowing ergometer users, a major improvement and something to celebrate (not something to denigrate).
Robert

[Citroen]

Citroen:
Please share with us what aspect(s) of the Slidewinder handle design you find "strange".
Robert

Since the C2 is meant as a simulator for a 4+ sweep boat what's wrong with the design of the stock handle (which C2 re-designed for the model D), that works for most on-the-water rowers who suffer with rowing on the ergo during the winter when they can't get on the wet stuff? What problem are you trying to solve? Are you solving it? If your design is so radical why didn't C2 do something like that when they change from the old model C wooden handle?

[Citroen]

Did people complain to Edison, "How dare you show us that light bulb when you don't have ten million of them ready to sell!" No.

Keep spreading the myth about Edison. It was Swann who invented the light bulb, Edison simply took his idea (which wasn't patented in the US) through to mass production.