Altitude And Air Resistance

[[old] GeorgeD]

<!--QuoteBegin-Sirrowsalot+Feb 26 2005, 02:07 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Sirrowsalot @ Feb 26 2005, 02:07 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As Jerry once said to George, "You're not very bright, are you?"<br /> </td></tr></table><br />While this is basically true I feel I must object on the grounds that you are implying I might be on the same level as John , if it was 'roadkill' then ok but to John I must object <br /><br />- George<br />

[[old] PaulH]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Feb 25 2005, 08:08 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Feb 25 2005, 08:08 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulH+Feb 24 2005, 06:18 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulH @ Feb 24 2005, 06:18 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->your erg wouldn't know the difference, and it's the erg that measures how fast you're going.  So for the erg altitude is not a variable, whereas for you it is. </td></tr></table><br />That's another point that we can agree on.<br /><br />The erg can adjust for differences in air flow and humidity, for example, and make the drag factor the same.<br /><br />But it can't change the humidity or the altitude.<br /><br />Thus in the case of altitude, the erg will be at altitude but still think it's at sea level.<br /><br />Then when the fan spins faster, the erg doesn't know any difference. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />No it won't John, it compensates for the altitude, removing it from a variable in your performance. It's really not that difficult to understand, so long as you can grasp that there isn't any difference in the air at altitude (for example, it isn't noticeably "lighter"), there's just somewhat less of it per unit volume. But the erg compensates for it. I'll repeat it just once more. The erg compensates for it. The erg isn't affected by lighter air, because it doesn't exist, and even if it did it wouldn't matter because once the drag factor is set to 120 then it will behave exactly the same as an erg at sea level set to 120. The rower, on the other hand, would not.<br /><br />Cheers, Paul

[[old] PaulH]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Feb 25 2005, 09:48 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Feb 25 2005, 09:48 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-rjw+Feb 23 2005, 08:15 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(rjw @ Feb 23 2005, 08:15 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They are qualifying times C2 uses for WIRC and can be found at <br /><a href='http://www.concept2.com/rowing/racing/q ... gtimes.asp' target='_blank'>http://www.concept2.com/rowing/racing/q ... mes.asp</a> </td></tr></table><br />C2's allowance for 50+ lightweights is <b>14 seconds</b>!!!!!<br /><br />Unbelieveable.<br /><br />It shouldn't be higher than 3-4 seconds. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Based on what, the fact that people who don't row can complete a different distance in a different sport in a different time?<br /><br />But why don't you prove us wrong - take a vacation to Denver and come within 3-4 seconds of your best 2k time.<br /><br />Cheers, Paul

[[old] John Rupp]

PaulH,<br /><br />Well now you say "there isn't any difference in the air at altitude".<br /><br />Great! This being the case, there is no reason to adjust the times, as everyone has the same advantage at altitude as at sea level.<br /><br />What does this mean? "But the erg compensates for it. I'll repeat it just once more. The erg compensates for it." Compensates for what? For nothing? Since there isn't any difference --- then --- there is nothing to compensate for!<br /><br />This is very easy to see.<br /><br />"once the drag factor is set to 120 then it will behave exactly the same as an erg at sea level set to 120. The rower, on the other hand, would not."<br /><br />Since there's no difference, why would the rower behave any different? Fear? If so, that's another thing we agree on. The only difference between rowing just as fast at altitude as at sea level is "fear", i.e. fear to train, fear to develop conditioning, fear to row equivalent times once fit, fear to admit there is really no difference, etc etc etc.

[[old] PaulH]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Feb 26 2005, 06:13 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Feb 26 2005, 06:13 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->PaulH,<br /><br />Well now you say "there isn't any difference in the air at altitude".<br /><br />Great!  This being the case, there is no reason to adjust the times, as everyone has the same advantage at altitude as at sea level.<br /><br />What does this mean?  "But the erg compensates for it.  I'll repeat it just once more.  The erg compensates for it."  Compensates for what?  For nothing?  Since there isn't any difference --- then --- there is nothing to compensate for!<br /><br />This is very easy to see.<br /><br />"once the drag factor is set to 120 then it will behave exactly the same as an erg at sea level set to 120.  The rower, on the other hand, would not."<br /><br />Since there's no difference, why would the rower behave any different?  Fear?  If so, "that's another thing we agree on.  The only difference between rowing just as fast at altitude as at sea level is "fear", i.e. fear to train, fear to develop conditioning, fear to row equivalent times once fit, fear to admit there is really no difference, etc etc etc. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />One of the things I like about this forum format is the easy quoting feature. So you can imagine my confusion now that you have misrepresented what I said. But lets go along with what you're saying for a moment. I contend that, quote: "there isn't any difference in the air at altitude (for example, it isn't noticeably "lighter"), there's just somewhat less of it per unit volume."<br /><br />What is it that you think that is different in the air at altitude? Is it a different color? Is it bouncier, or friendlier, or faster? I think it's essentially the same as at sea level, but there's less of it. That means the air pressure is lower (but the air isn't meaningfully 'lighter' because that's a nonsense statement). This doesn't affect the erg, because the method it uses to change drag is be modifying the effective air pressure for the fan. Whether that change comes from the damper or from an actual change in air pressure is irrelevent. What is relevant is that the altitude reduces the amount of available oxygen, which will affect the rower. Not any change in the air, just in its availability.<br /><br />So what is it *in the air* that is different at altitude John? Or can you just not be bothered to try to understand the laws of physics?

[[old] SimonB]

I never knew this forum would be so much fun..... <br /><br />There is only one way this thread could ever be resolved and that is to test the theory. No amount of discussion will resolve this.<br /><br />Keep all variables the same other than pressure. You can even keep the O2 content the same.<br /><br />This could be done in a pressure chamber with an erg.<br /><br />The pressure can be reduced (or increased) to simulate any altitude.<br /><br />The rower adjusts drag factor accordingly and rows a test piece.<br /><br />The pressure is changed and the drag adjusted.<br /><br />The rower repeats the test.<br /><br />End of story....<br /><br />Good luck and post your result here. <br /><br /><br />(Almost upto 4000 views... Come on slackers... get viewing we have a record to set here )

[[old] Sirrowsalot]

<!--QuoteBegin-SimonB+Feb 26 2005, 07:19 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(SimonB @ Feb 26 2005, 07:19 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I never knew this forum would be so much fun..... <br /><br />There is only one way this thread could ever be resolved and that is to test the theory. No amount of discussion will resolve this.<br /><br />Keep all variables the same other than pressure. You can even keep the O2 content the same.<br /><br />This could be done in a pressure chamber with an erg.<br /><br />The pressure can be reduced (or increased) to simulate any altitude.<br /><br />The rower adjusts drag factor accordingly and rows a test piece.<br /><br />The pressure is changed and the drag adjusted.<br /><br />The rower repeats the test.<br /><br />End of story....<br /><br />Good luck and post your result here.  <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Actually it's ben resolved repeatedly. John has simply been evasive and hilariously incompetent.<br />

[[old] John Rupp]

PaulH,<br /><br />By your reasoning does this mean then that I'm also not really "lighter" than you, but rather, "less dense"?

[[old] John Rupp]

PaulH,<br /><br />I noticed something this morning, that has happened many times before.<br /><br />At the end of one of my rows, I took another stroke, which maintained but did not increase the speed of the fan.<br /><br />Notably, this <b>does not register any additional meters</b>!<br /><br />Based on this if I could conceivably manage to maintain an identical speed of the fan at all times, with "no" acceleration, the monitor would register nada as regards pace.<br /><br />Thus the monitor is a reward mechanism for inefficiency. The greater the deviation from an even speed, the more reward the monitor gives as regards pace.<br /><br />This is very interesting and, I think, a major flaw in the mechanism of the monitor.<br /><br />In a boat, cycling or running, for example, whoever maintains the fastest average speed gets the fastest overall time. This is independent of any acceleration from one stroke, cycle, or step to another, and simply determinant by forward progression.<br /><br />This also highlights another means by which rowers can achieve faster times at altitude than at sea level, i.e. the fan accelerating more quickly and with greater deviation from a mean speed at altitude than at sea level.

[[old] SimonB]

<!--QuoteBegin-Sirrowsalot+Feb 26 2005, 07:21 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Sirrowsalot @ Feb 26 2005, 07:21 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-SimonB+Feb 26 2005, 07:19 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(SimonB @ Feb 26 2005, 07:19 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I never knew this forum would be so much fun..... <br /><br />There is only one way this thread could ever be resolved and that is to test the theory. No amount of discussion will resolve this.<br /><br />Keep all variables the same other than pressure. You can even keep the O2 content the same.<br /><br />This could be done in a pressure chamber with an erg.<br /><br />The pressure can be reduced (or increased) to simulate any altitude.<br /><br />The rower adjusts drag factor accordingly and rows a test piece.<br /><br />The pressure is changed and the drag adjusted.<br /><br />The rower repeats the test.<br /><br />End of story....<br /><br />Good luck and post your result here.  <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Actually it's ben resolved repeatedly. John has simply been evasive and hilariously incompetent. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yes, I know . I just had to post to this thread, I was feeling left out.... <br />

[[old] kjgress]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Feb 26 2005, 07:38 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Feb 26 2005, 07:38 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This also highlights another means by which rowers can achieve faster times at altitude than at sea level, i.e. the fan accelerating more quickly and with greater deviation from a mean speed at altitude than at sea level. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />John: If the DF is set the same the fan doesn't act any differently at altitude than at sea level

[[old] kjgress]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Feb 26 2005, 06:13 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Feb 26 2005, 06:13 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only difference between rowing just as fast at altitude as at sea level is "fear", i.e. fear to train, fear to develop conditioning, fear to row equivalent times once fit, fear to admit there is really no difference, etc etc etc. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />John: Don't you think this response is a little off topic? What does this have to do with the discussion at hand (altitude and its effect on performance), unless you somehow think that living at altitude induces fear in rowers.

[[old] PaulH]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Feb 26 2005, 07:28 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Feb 26 2005, 07:28 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->PaulH,<br /><br />By your reasoning does this mean then that I'm also not really "lighter" than you, but rather, "less dense"? <br /> </td></tr></table><br />No, actually you're lighter, but comparably dense (actually you're probably denser, as more of you will be muscle).<br /><br />Of course, this thread may give some indication of your relative density.<br /><br />Cheers, Paul

[[old] Galt]

I really don't understand the fear thing. I live up a mile and have never even had a thought about taking it easy when I work out, and Boulder, in general, is obsessed with fitness to the extreme. I have never seen anthing like it. It is kinda of like existing in a permanent olympic village.

[[old] Exrook]

FWIW - Here is a fairly good general explanation of how drag works:<br /><br /><a href='http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/density.html' target='_blank'>http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airpla ... tml</a><br /><br />For a more indepth treatment, try some of the material available here:<br /><br /><a href='http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Aeronautics-a ... /index.htm' target='_blank'>http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Aeronautics-a ... htm</a><br /><br />Not that I actually expect this will make any difference to John's point of view...