The Two Types of Training

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
Nosmo
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by Nosmo » March 4th, 2010, 9:48 pm

JohnBove wrote:
But this needs some explanation.
There isn't a soul on this thread who will have trouble understanding or agreeing with what he said.

Including you.
Actually it does need some explanation. I can forgive most of what Ranger writes. It is really mostly attention seeking jibberish of no consequence. Most of his trash talk doesn't bother me. Trash talking rivals can be fun and games also of no consequence.

Insulting great athletes who you will never race against is stepping over the line. But really my opinion of his integrity is mostly due to his refusal to pay his debts. Henry would have surely paid Ranger if he lost. Ranger lost and isn't man enough to admit it. But the worse part of all is using his wife as an excuse for acting like a total a$$hole. That is inexcusable in my book.
JohnBove wrote: Why do you address this as if it's a possibility?....

Finally, he's a joke -- a needy, pathetic fool who will say anything to attract attention. I'm not sure which is worse, his shamelessness or our pleasure in poking this village idiot with a stick.
Of course there is no chance of a 6:16. But the point being that even if he did something none of us think are possible, it doesn't change my opinion of his integrity.
He may be a needy pathetic fool, he may be severely mentally ill deserving much sympathy, he may even be a troll who doesn't really believe anything he says. He enjoys being poked, he likes the attention, so it is no big deal deal if we do it. (If he is severely mentally ill then we may be doing him a grave disservice and all should of us should be ashamed--I hope not.)

I'm here mostly because it is a very entertaining. Getting too involved or upset at what he writes is really foolish.
Last edited by Nosmo on March 4th, 2010, 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

wgr
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Re: Re:

Post by wgr » March 4th, 2010, 11:37 pm

DUThomas wrote:
wgr wrote:Poetic License allows the poet to stretch, exaggerate, and use imagery in ways that we are not. To a poet, thousands of meters can become millions if he wishes to emphasize the effort required to make his erg "slip the surly bounds of earth". To a poet, precision is at the far end of the scale of his creative writing and is to be used sparingly. So don't insist on it here. Poets, because of the regulations of their craft, must invoke Poetic License in their compositions. Failure to do so could result in expulsion from his profession and the Guild of Poets.
Walter, please help me out. I was looking on Amazon for compilations of Ranger's poetry, but, here's the catch, I couldn't find any. Could you please send me some links to his poetry? I know from his postings that I would really like to read them.
David,
You have an Epic, composed mainly by Ranger and assisted by others like you, unfolding before your very eyes.

An Epic is any long, narrative poem or a prose narrative about the deeds of a traditional or historical hero or heroes, like the Iliad or the Odyssey.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/epic

Ranger's writing style, single sentence paragraphs, is reminiscent of poetic structure, without the rhyme, and some would argue, without the reason. But reason is not an essential component of poetry.

This thread and the previous thread describes his real-time Odyssey to 6:16. He has a grand goal that he wishes to accomplish and he describes his journey to us, his prodigious training efforts, his trials and tribulations, and his attaining rowing perfection, but not, yet, his ultimate goal.

Other than his writings here, I'm not aware of any published poems written by Ranger, but I assume that as a professor of poetry he must have some.

Walter

ps. Don't be surprised if Ranger gives me a failing grade me after he reads this.

detlefchef
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by detlefchef » March 5th, 2010, 2:00 am

ranger wrote:
DU Thomas wrote:It's obvious that an Associate Professor of Poetics in Ann Arbor, MI, knows more about training, conditioning and rowing than the best rowing coaches in the world.
No, it's not at all "obvious."

It's empirical.

A matter to be determined by fact.

The erg is a truth machine.

We just have to wait and see what happens.

Sure, if I pull 6:16 for 2K at the end of April, I might indeed want to say that I know more about training, conditioning, and rowing--taken together--than the best rowing coaches in the world.

A lwt 6:16 at 60 years old would be more than a little bizarre, no?

It would break the 60s lwt WR by 26 seconds.

It would break the 60s lwt WR by 8 seconds

It would break the 55s lwt WR by 22 seconds.

It would breka the 55s hwt WR by 2 seconds.

It would break the 50s lwt WR by 9 seconds.

It would break the 40s lwt WR by two seconds.

It would break the 30s American record.

It would meet the qualifying standard for the US National Team.

Hmm.

ranger
And when, at age 41, I destroy Usain Bolt's WR in the 100m, you can all kiss my ass. Unlike you, I'm only about 4 seconds away. Nothing a little sharpening can't fix, right? What do you say? Six weeks or so should do it?
41 years, 195 lbs 500m 1:30.5, 1K 3:13.6, 2K 6:52.4

ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 5th, 2010, 3:10 am

detlefchef wrote:Six weeks or so should do it?
For sharpening in rowing?

Yes.

And in that, it's about the same for everyone.

Sharpening is worth a dozen seconds or so over 2K.

For everyone.

Why?

Sharpening brings up your anaerobic capacities.

A 2K is 20% anaerobic.

Most training, if it is good training, is _not_ anaerobic.

What you can do in a 2K, then, has nothing to do with your sharpening, other than the fact that you need to spend six weeks doing it before you can row your best 2K.

What determines how fast you are for 2K depends on your UT scores, e.g., how fast you can row 60min @ 10 MPS.

Why?

A 60min trial challenges your technical and skeletal-muscular effectiveness and efficiency as a rower up to the limits of your aerobic capacity.

Then sharpening adds your anaerobic capacities.

60min is done at 2K + 10.

For example, fully trained, anyone who can row 60min @ 1:44 (17.3K) can row 2K at 1:34.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 5th, 2010, 4:59 am

An interesting observation is that, for the most part (i.e., the Danish lightweights excluded), among the best lightweights, 2K rates remain pretty much the same over the years, even if the time period stretches to several decades.

Great young lightweights such as Luini rate 36 spm in 2K; so does Rocket Roy Brook, who is almost 60.

The difference between Luini's 2K time and Rocket Roy's, however, is 40 seconds or so.

Pace is rate x stroking power (SPI).

So if rate remains the same, this 40 second difference is entirely due to stroking power.

At 36 spm, a rower needs to pull 13.3 SPI to score 6:00 in a 2K.

The average decline with age is a second a year over 2K after 20.

At race rates, 1 SPI is worth about 10 seconds over 2K.

So among the best lightweights, there is a loss of about 1 SPI of stroking power every decade.

At 36 spm,

20 years old, 6:00 for 2K, 13.3 SPI
30 years old, 6:10 for 2K, 12.3 SPI
40 years old, 6:20 for 2K, 11.3 SPI
50 years old, 6:30 for 2K, 10.3 SPI
60 years old, 6:40 for 2K, 9.3 SPI

Clearly, if this is the case, for aging lightweight rowers at least, the best training plan is one that slows down, or overcomes entirely, this steady loss in stroking power with age, given the same 2K rate.

You don't get better by parading your strengths.

You get better by overcoming your weaknesses.

Interestingly, after working exclusively on my technique and stroking power for the last seven years, I can now pull 13.3 SPI at 36 spm (1:30) pretty easily, even though, like most 50s lightweights, I used to pull 10.3 SPI @ 36 spm in a 2K seven years ago, when I was 52 rather than 59.

In fact, 1:30 @ 36 SPM is just the rate and pace combination that I will use for 8 x 500m over the next six weeks during hard sharpening.

Stroking maximally, I can now do 500r30 @ 1:30 (16 SPI).

1:30 @ 36 spm (13.3 SPI) is 2.7 SPI off of that, so now, it is quite a bit lighter than maximal stroking for me.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 5th, 2010, 5:06 am

Beautifully relaxed cadence now, 1:36 @ 30 spm.

That's exactly 13.3 SPI.

This is my cadence, I think, for Zatopek 500s and 1Ks.

Only 48 strokes for a 500m, 96 strokes for a 1K.

A stroke every two seconds.

Just doin' it, doin' it.

Amazing power for a 60s lightweight.

Entirely comparable to the best elite young lightweights.

I'm rowing well!

Damn.

I wonder if I can work up 1:36 @ 30 spm into a full 2K that I could repeat, in, say, a 4 x 2K session?

Wouldn't that be something?

If I can, my AT pace is 1:36, not 1:38, as I thought.

Only 192 strokes for a 2K.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 5th, 2010, 5:13 am

Given my stroking power now, it looks as though I am getting _very_ close to being able to do a 2K at 10 MPS and my target pace.

1:34 @ 32 spm (10 MPS) is 13 SPI.

Hey, maybe that silly old coot Paul Smith is right after all?

He always said I'd find out he was right--in the end.

:oops: :oops:

No matter.

Even so, I prefer to find out things for myself, just as a check on the quality of advice you are swallowing.

It looks as though Paul's advice is good, at least on this 10 MPS business.

On the erg, 10 MPS indeed seems to be a maximally efficient and effective cadence/ratio.

If you are going as fast as you can over some distance but are still holding 10 MPS, you are rowing well, or at least, as well as you can, given your gifts for the sport and level of commitment to training yourself to be the best you can be.

Honestly, if he is going to pull them at 1:43, Mike VB should just erg 2Ks at a steady 29 spm and 10 MPS instead of flailing away at 40 spm as he comes into the finish.

That would be better for his OTW rowing.

I suspect he would row an OTW 2K at about 29 spm in his 1x.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

lancs
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by lancs » March 5th, 2010, 5:37 am

So no joy with those timed pieces you promised us earlier in the week then Prof?

How far do you think you'll get on Saturday at 1.37's-1.38's before you realise it's *way* too quick for you? You know, that inescapable feeling of drowning in your own lactate?

Hint: that lactate accumulation would suggest your're some way above your AT.. I'm guessing in the region of 7 seconds/500m or so. There's that 7/500m again!! :idea:

ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 5th, 2010, 5:48 am

I suppose this means that I should pace my 2K tomorrow morning, 1:37 @ 31 spm.

Then, if I can do that, the goal of sharpening will just be to move up one notch on the 10 MPS ladder, one spm and three seconds per 500m, to 1:34 @ 32 spm.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

lancs
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by lancs » March 5th, 2010, 5:50 am

ranger wrote:I suppose this means that I should pace my 2K tomorrow morning, 1:37 @ 31 spm.
Oh go on, please do that. It'll be most amusing finding out how far you got with that. 700m? 800m? :)

ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 5th, 2010, 5:52 am

lancs wrote:How far do you think you'll get on Saturday at 1.37's-1.38's before you realise it's *way* too quick for you?
I don't know.

But I suppose I'll soon find out.

At Baltimore in 2006, I pulled 1:38 @ 31 spm for 1700m, then felt so good I lifted the rate to 34 spm and pulled 1:34 to the finish.

I think I am in comparable shape now.

If I can pull off a 2K, 1:37 @ 31 spm, I'll have that solid AT race I need as a baseline for sharpening.

Then, with six weeks of hard sharpening, and the standard gain of a dozen seconds over 2K, I will hit my target of 1:34.

Bang on.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 5th, 2010, 6:01 am

lancs wrote:You know, that inescapable feeling of drowning in your own lactate?
Depends on what you are doing, Lancs, and how you train.

At this point, I am just doing an AT 2K.

Not much lactate involved at all.

Most of the rowing is aerobic.

I haven't even sharpened yet.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

lancs
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by lancs » March 5th, 2010, 6:01 am

ranger wrote:At Baltimore in 2006, I pulled 1:38 @ 31 spm for 1700m, then felt so good I lifted the rate to 34 spm and pulled 1:34 to the finish
4 years ago as a hwt..

lancs
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by lancs » March 5th, 2010, 6:04 am

ranger wrote:
lancs wrote:You know, that inescapable feeling of drowning in your own lactate?
At this point, I am just doing an AT 2K.

Not much lactate involved at all.
That's my point. The reason you've thus far not been able to complete your so-called AT 2k is that it's **way** above your AT, hence lots of lactate, hence you practically stopping rowing (your own words). I'm afraid this is physiology that even a talented athlete like you can't hide from. The sooner you accept this the sooner you can get on with trying to crack the 6:40 barrier..

ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 5th, 2010, 6:22 am

There are absolutely no consequences to what happens on Saturday.

I am _waaaay_ short of being fully trained, and my 2K is already over 20 seconds better than anyone else's my age and weight.

RANKING RESULTS 2010
Indoor Rower | Individual and Race Results | 2000m | Men's | Lightweight | Custom Age Range (59–80) | Current 2010 Season

You are number 1 of 192

1 Rich Cureton 59 Ann Arbor MI USA 6:41.4 RACE
2 Hugh Pite 65 Victoria BC CAN 7:02.7 RACE
3 Robert Lakin 61 Wichita KS USA 7:03.6 RACE
4 gregory brock 62 santa cruz ca USA 7:03.9 IND
5 Rolf Meek 59 Oslo NOR 7:05.4 IND
6 Jerry Lawson 62 USA 7:06.0 RACE
6 Gerald Lawson 62 Winona MN USA 7:06.0 IND
8 Leif Petersen 64 DEN 7:08.5 RACE
9 Peter Francis 61 Denver CO USA 7:09.3 RACE
10 Roger Prowse 65 Isle of Wight GBR 7:10.3 RACE

If things don't go well tomorrow, I will just keep doing my distance training, perhaps with a spate of distance trials, until I get that sub-6:30 AT 2K I am looking for.

Then I will sharpen, and get the last dozen seconds I need to hit my 2K target.

Then my 2K will be 45 seconds better than anyone else's my age and weight.

:shock: :shock:

The people who are in a pickle are those who, even when fully trained, are still as slow as molasses, such as Rocket Roy and Mike VB.

Nothing to be done, then.

That isn't my problem at all.

My training is coming along great.

I am getting better and better.

And I am getting closer and closer to being fully trained.

Just distance trials, and a bit of sharpening, to go, and I'll be there.

ranger
Last edited by ranger on March 5th, 2010, 6:29 am, edited 4 times in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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