The Two Types of Training

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
ranger
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Post by ranger » March 3rd, 2010, 5:00 am

While Paul Smith's 10 MPS program might indeed be a way of getting used to high rates (efficiency), and at the same time working on stroking power (effectiveness), with the emphasis on efficiency, which in the end is more important and harder to learn, if you first learn to row effectively, as I think you should, it now seems to me that you can be quite a bit more purist in your work on efficiency than a regimen based on 10 MPS entails.

If you are a little lightweight like me, just row at 32 spm for everything, as I did when I first took up rowing, using your effectiveness, your stroking power, to vary the effort, as the distance varies.

If you get maximally efficient at doing this, you should be able to row a FM @ 32 spm, as I did when I first took up rowing, by just lightening up 4 SPI; a HM, by lightening up 3 SPI; a 10K, by lightening up 2 SPI; and a 5K, by lightening up 1 SPI. Then, when you race a 2K, draw on all of your effectiveness and row well, for a lightweight, at 13 SPI.

So the task in distance rowing for a lightweight, the task in learning how to be maximally efficient, if you remain purist about it, and keep it in a proper training sequence _after_ you learn to be effective (13 SPI), is this:

FM 9 SPI @ 32 spm (1:46)
HM 10 SPI @ 32 spm (1:43)
10K 11 SPI @ 32 spm (1:40)
5K 12 SPI @ 32 spm (1:37)
2K 13 SPI @ 32 spm (1:34)

This is what I will now try to do in my distance rowing.

These distances and times are right on my targets and follow the well-known formula for the best lightweights of "double to d, add 3."

I suspect that this is what people like Rod Freed did in their training, but because they never did their proper work on effectiveness first, their achievement, while massively impressive for longer distances, never translated to the 2K.

That is, I suspect that Freed rowed a HM at 32 spm and 9 SPI; a 10K at 32 spm and 10 SPI; and a 5K at 32 spm and 11 SPI.

But he had no way to row 2K at 32 spm and 12 SPI, much less 13 SPI.

He didn't have the stroking power.

BTW, one of the best ways of training yourself to do this purist work on efficiency, is just to have 32 spm playing in your head all day long, with muscle memory adding the kinaesthetic imagery associated with the rowing stroke.

This takes no effort at all, because you are only thinking/imagining, rather than rowing, but the timing, sequencing, leveraging, motion, rhythmicity, etc., in this thinking/imaging are all there, and the more you do it, the more automatic/unconscious the performance gets.

Then when you are actually rowing, the mental discipline you need is all in place.

All you need to do is just add various amounts of effectiveness (9 SPI at the bottom of the range, 13 SPI at the top of the range), like so many eggs added to the batter, and the cake appears, in whatever shape and flavor you would like for the moment.

One of the very odd consequences of this kind of training, I think, is this:

Those who grew up paddling a canoe, as I did for the first 20 years of my life, have a lifetime of experience about how to be maximally efficient when rowing.

It is not at all an accident, I think, that Paul Flack could row a great marathon, without even working at it very hard.

Paul was a national team C2 paddler for a decade.

At the moment, Jamie Pfeiffer also seems to do this sort of rowing: high rate, long distance, light stroke (e.g., 60min @ 30 spm and 1:48 pace, 9 SPI.

To be maximally efficient in rowing, paddle.

And off you will go--effortlessly, like the wind.

ranger

P.S. Could you imagine NavHaz training like this?

:lol: :lol:

But there's the problem.

Nav _doesn't_ train like this because he is massively inefficient, and doesn't care. In his training, to try to get better, he just parades his strengths and avoids his weaknesses. He works of effectiveness in everything he does, and just lets efficiency slide. As a result, as he ages, he just gets worse and worse.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
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Post by ranger » March 3rd, 2010, 5:28 am

Mike Caviston never learned how to row efficiently.

He never learned how to paddle.

His whole training regimen is skewed toward effectiveness.

He rowed his long level 3 rows at 24 spm rather than 32 spm.

He muscled them.

To prepare himself for this, he spent 75% of his time muscling his training, working on effectiveness at low rates, while only devoting a session, here and there, to efficiency.

The rows that Mike was always concerned with were things like 60'r20 and the like.

But if he followed a balanced training program that included substantial work on efficiency, he would have been more interested in 60'r32, that is, a 60min trial, done with maximal efficiency, not a bunch of inefficient, muscle-beach trudging, fobbed off as rowing.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

lancs
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Post by lancs » March 3rd, 2010, 5:33 am

ranger wrote:I am not sure what motivates the nay-saying chatter here
Well here's what motivates my naysaying:
ranger wrote:FM 9 SPI @ 32 spm (1:46)
HM 10 SPI @ 32 spm (1:43)
10K 11 SPI @ 32 spm (1:40)
5K 12 SPI @ 32 spm (1:37)
2K 13 SPI @ 32 spm (1:34)

This is what I will now try to do in my distance rowing.

These distances and times are right on my targets
It's the thought that any innocent newcomer to the Forum could actually think you could get within even a *quarter* of those distances at those paces. To state 'targets' like that implies you are not too far away from them when in fact you can't currently hold 1:40 for 2k, nevermind 10k..

KevJGK
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Post by KevJGK » March 3rd, 2010, 5:42 am

ranger wrote:Mike Caviston never learned how to row efficiently.
Are you refering to the current 40-49 lwt world record holder? :roll: :roll:
Kevin
Age: 57 - Weight: 187 lbs - Height: 5'10"
500m 01:33.5 Jun 2010 - 2K 06:59.5 Nov 2009 - 5K 19:08.4 Jan 2011

snowleopard
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Post by snowleopard » March 3rd, 2010, 5:52 am

ranger wrote:If you are a little lightweight like me, just row at 32 spm for everything, as I did when I first took up rowing, using your effectiveness, your stroking power, to vary the effort, as the distance varies.
The wheel has indeed turned full circle. Hidden in this statement is the abandonment of 'rowing well'.

And look what follows:
ranger wrote:by just lightening up 4 SPI
So distance rowing is now to be done at 9 SPI, "lily dipping".

ranger needs a horse, "Hiyo Silver!"

ranger
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Post by ranger » March 3rd, 2010, 6:31 am

Wow.

Hugely stable stroke, 1:34 @ 34 spm.

12.5 SPI

There's my racing stroke.

Now, all I have to do is force my heart rate up to the max, practice for a few weeks with it at max, riding it out, riding it out, and that's it.

My training is complete.

I can't imagine that I won't be there by the end of April.

All my other rowing, I can do, 32 spm @ 1:40 (11 SPI).

Together, the two are dynamite.

They only differ two spm is rate, 1.5 SPI in power, 6 seconds per 500m in pace.

I am now sharpening hard.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 4th, 2010, 11:25 am

My sharpening has really rounded into shape.

I have reduced my training rates and paces to a collection of three, all over 30 spm and WR 2K pace for a 55s/60s lwt, which can now serve for all purposes.

AT: 1:38 @ 32 spm (11.7 SPI), for 4 x 2K, 5K, 6K, etc.

TR: 1:34 @ 34 spm (12.5 SPI), for 4 x 1K, 20 x 500m, 2K, etc.

AN: 1:30 @ 36 spm (13.3 SPI), for 8 x 500m, 1K, 1' on, 1' off, 250s, etc.

Delighted with these developments.

I have the rate up.

No more low rate rowing.

BTW, an AT of 1:38 seems to be about the best an older, club-level, and/or American lightweight has ever worked with.

The C2 websites here list Dan Staite's 30s lwt 16:18 5K as the 5K WR for all the age groups, even faster than the Open WR, although it seems evident that the great Danish lightweights must be able to do quite a bit better than that, perhaps as much as three seconds per 500m better, in time, 30 seconds.

15:50?

1:35?

5K is done at AT.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 4th, 2010, 11:26 am

On the erg, elite Open and Masters American and British lightweights have lagged about 10 seconds behind the Danish and Italian lightweights.

The American and British Open lightweight 2K records are 6:07 (by Steve Warner and Tim Male).

The American Masters lwt 2K record (by Greg Ruckman) is 6:16.

The British Masters lwt 2K record (by Tom Kay) is 6:13.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
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Re:

Post by ranger » March 4th, 2010, 11:27 am

KevJGK wrote:
ranger wrote:Mike Caviston never learned how to row efficiently.
Are you refering to the current 40-49 lwt world record holder? :roll: :roll:
Yep.

He was just massively effective.

Someone who is efficient, while being just as effective, will beat his 2K times.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
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Re:

Post by ranger » March 4th, 2010, 11:31 am

snowleopard wrote:
ranger wrote:If you are a little lightweight like me, just row at 32 spm for everything, as I did when I first took up rowing, using your effectiveness, your stroking power, to vary the effort, as the distance varies.
The wheel has indeed turned full circle. Hidden in this statement is the abandonment of 'rowing well'.

And look what follows:
ranger wrote:by just lightening up 4 SPI
So distance rowing is now to be done at 9 SPI, "lily dipping".

ranger needs a horse, "Hiyo Silver!"
No, I am not abandoning rowing well.

I will still row 2K at very close to 13 SPI and 32 spm.

But, yes, I think that effectiveness and efficiency need to be separated in training.

For a lightweight, 13 SPI is rowing effectively, regardless of the rate.

For a lightweight, 32 spm is rowing efficiently, regardless of the stroking power.

Put them together and you have a nice 2K target:

13 SPI @ 32 spm, 1:34 pace, 6:16

Effective and Efficient

Rowing well!

6:16 is what Eskild E. rows for 2K, now that he is 37 years old.

6:16 is the Masters/30s American record.

ranger
Last edited by ranger on March 4th, 2010, 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

lancs
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by lancs » March 4th, 2010, 11:36 am

ranger wrote:5K is done at AT.
Hence the reason your AT is somewhere in the region of 1:44-1:45 pace. At best..

ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 4th, 2010, 11:38 am

lancs wrote:
ranger wrote:5K is done at AT.
Hence the reason your AT is somewhere in the region of 1:44-1:45 pace. At best..
We'll see.

I am waiting for that sub-6:30 AT 2K first.

Then I will launch into some hard AT training, including bouts of 4 x 2K and distance trials.

Of course, I will have to train myself up to it, but I think my AT pace is now 1:38.

HR 175 bpm

ranger
Last edited by ranger on March 4th, 2010, 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 4th, 2010, 11:39 am

BTW, I now just stand on the scales at 165 lbs.

I am a walking around lightweight.

This is as light as I have been since my freshman year in college, 40 years ago.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

macroth
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by macroth » March 4th, 2010, 11:51 am

ranger wrote:
I am waiting for that sub-6:30 AT 2K first.
I'm sure Godot will show up much sooner.
43/m/183cm/HW
All time PBs: 100m 14.0 | 500m 1:18.1 | 1k 2:55.7 | 2k 6:15.4 | 5k 16:59.3 | 6k 20:46.5 | 10k 35:46.0
40+ PBs: 100m 14.7 | 500m 1:20.5 | 1k 2:59.6 | 2k 6:21.9 | 5k 17:29.6 | HM 1:19:33.1| FM 2:51:58.5 | 100k 7:35:09 | 24h 250,706m

lancs
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by lancs » March 4th, 2010, 11:54 am

ranger wrote:We'll see.

I am waiting for that sub-6:30 AT 2K first.
I think you've just clarified the issue of the AT then: waiting for a "sub-6:30 AT 2K"? 2k?!?!?

Is that not telling you something?

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