New Requirements For Ranking Pieces

[old] cynthia · Post by **[old] cynthia** » May 11th, 2005, 1:07 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(runningun @ May 11 2005, 11:10 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br />2. THERE MAY BE OTHER/BETTER WAYS TO VERIFY. Although I don't buy the arguement that one might just dust of a top-3 time on a whim and I think an athlete should be able to perform elsewhere than in his own home, it does seem that many good times will be lost, if there is a requirement to go to a public place. Since these top-3 times will be so rare, some other "verification" options should be possible. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Bert<br /><br />I agree with most of your comments, however would like to argue that it is quite possible to just "dust off a top 3 time on a whim". Many times I have completed a top time on a whim (felt good that day etc). The main point however, is that these times have always been repeatable. I know that if I can complete a PB on a whim that will qualify for a top spot, chances are pretty good that I can do it again. <br />I'm not sure what to suggest about longer pieces such as a half marathon or marathon - I'm not in the habit of doing them myself but would think most people plan them ahead of time?<br /><br />Cynthia<br />

[old] michael · Post by **[old] michael** » May 11th, 2005, 1:46 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(cynthia @ May 11 2005, 12:07 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>[I know that if I can complete a PB on a whim that will qualify for a top spot, chances are pretty good that I can do it again. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Well I sure can't--not on any of "publicly accessible machines" I used, given the distractions of inane loud music and annoyingly bad first time rowers coming and going every 8 minutes. I've also yet to use an outside C2 erg as well cared for as mine is.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » May 11th, 2005, 2:03 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dadams @ May 10 2005, 05:05 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>P.S. I want to add that Bill did call the gym to verify that the row had been made, and that the machine is in working order. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I think Bill probably called, as others have suggested, to make sure the machine was <b>Still</b> in working order. <br /><br />You sure you didn't just pick the "fastest" machine in the gym? <br />

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » May 11th, 2005, 2:14 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(runningun @ May 11 2005, 09:10 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I don't buy the arguement that one might just dust of a top-3 time on a whim and I think an athlete should be able to perform elsewhere than in his own home<br /> </td></tr></table><br />I've started many time trials that have not resulted in a PB or even close to one, compared to the few times that I have. Notifying C2 every time would entail notifying C2 every day, that I'm going to row and might end up doing a PB. If we all did this, every day or even at least a couple of times a week then it would soon overwhelm C2. That just doesn't make any sense. Also it doesn't take into account that someone might end up doing a different distance than the one that was planned. This has happened all the time with PB's of others on the forum.<br /><br />I rarely do PB's on a whim. Usually they are planned for weeks or at the minimum a few days in advance. However I did get a 5k PB the day after failing miserably at a 2k, going from 19:35 to 19:08 (now faster). I had started the 5k just to get in a good row and use up my energy and had no idea whatsoever that it would result in a PB time but it did. Thus it wasn't a whim and not even planned. However if someone feels great and does a PB on a whim, as many do, then they still did the time, and should not be cheated out of being able to post it on the rankings.<br /><br />As to your assertion that people should be able to compete elsewhere than their home. <b>OF COURSE!</b> And really all of you should be able to compete in my driveway. However all of you don't live here, and I don't live in Boston or New York. It is not possible for all of us to row anywhere, on a whim. Also you are missing what I think is the major issue to this, which is availability and access of ergs.<br /><br />There are no gyms in this area that I know of, and I have called a lot of them, that have public access to ergs, and none that I know of that even HAVE an erg. Even if they did, the gyms would not be accessible to me, as they would charge a fee, I am not a member of any of them, AND it would mess up my schedule and I would have to make arrangements to drive there to row a session, that would be much more accessible and available to complete here in my garage in my home.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » May 11th, 2005, 2:15 pm

You are also assuming a lot when you say, "should be able to perform elsewhere".<br /><br />Yes of course! Had I daily or even a couple of times a week access to a rowing club then there is no question my times would be somewhat faster, just from the environment, additional competition, encouragement, and being around other people who row. It is unquestionably a huge advantage to row in a club! The rules would make more sense it if it was stated that club times didn't count, and we would have to do ranking times in a home! Then, at least, the playing field would be level for everyone.<br /><br />The interesting thing is that, by not allowing legitimate times, while approving those that may or may not be as legitimate, the opposite of eliminating cheating is most definitely the result.<br /><br />What I wonder is, that since you are outraged by cheating, why are you not outraged at the exclusion of legitimate times, and parochial approval of times that may or may not be as good.

[old] NavigationHazard · Post by **[old] NavigationHazard** » May 11th, 2005, 2:19 pm

As of a couple of minutes ago, there now are TWO Egyptians posting highly improbable numbers of meters rowed this season: Mohammed Salem is now averaging 81818, and one Ahmed Khairy is at an even 100k.<br /><br />FWIW, for the non-metric world -- 100k meters is 62 miles (1 mile = 1609 m).... <br /><br />I managed to find a website for Khairy:<br /><br /><a href='http://ahmeditsh.jeeran.com/index.html' target='_blank'>Ahmed Khairy website</a><br /><br />Unfortunately some of it is in colloquial Egyptian Arabic, and my ability to translate is more than limited.<br /><br />Mohammed Salem's name appears in the guestbook. Maybe someone with Arabic skills can figure out if he's the Vespoli rep for Egypt, which may be the case.....<br /><br />My guess is that they've entered meters that had accumulated from last season, but it's sport and who knows....<br />

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » May 11th, 2005, 2:23 pm

"Notifying C2 every time would entail notifying C2 every day, that I'm going to row and might end up doing a PB"<br /><br />John,<br /><br />This isn't a policy that effects your "PB's", is it? You are in no way obligated to notify C2 that you are going to produce a PB, just put it in the log and rank it, if it happens to be in the top 3 and faster than any of the top 3 from last year, then it will effect you and I'll wager that C2 would be very fair and reasonable in getting you verified for the performance.<br /><br />Now <b>STOP WHINING!</b><br /><br />And you call me a "Troll"?

[old] Godfried · Post by **[old] Godfried** » May 11th, 2005, 2:25 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(NavigationHazard @ May 11 2005, 08:19 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>My guess is that they've entered meters that had accumulated from last season, but it's sport and who knows....<br /> </td></tr></table><br />No, he was adding 100k each day.<br /><br />But both of them are gone now.<br /><br />Update:<br />ahmed khairy now has a total of 100k.

[old] Godfried · Post by **[old] Godfried** » May 11th, 2005, 2:31 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ May 11 2005, 08:23 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Now <b>STOP WHINING!</b><br /> </td></tr></table><br />That is the beauty of this forum , you can <a href='http://concept2.ipbhost.com/index.php?a ... ore&uid=22' target='_blank'>Ignore User</a>

[old] Canoeist · Post by **[old] Canoeist** » May 11th, 2005, 2:32 pm

If a club or team rows an eight, does each rower get 10Km of credit? Oar, does only one peson get credit for the meters? <br /><br />How about the cox. Does he get to write down his meters too? After all, he did most of the work.<br /><br />A club could easily row an eight for 12K per day and rack up 108,000m a day if you counted all members in the boat.<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />Paul Flack

[old] NavigationHazard · Post by **[old] NavigationHazard** » May 11th, 2005, 2:38 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Canoeist @ May 11 2005, 01:32 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>If a club or team rows an eight, does each rower get 10Km of credit? Oar, does only one peson get credit for the meters? <br /><br />How about the cox. Does he get to write down his meters too? After all, he did most of the work.<br /><br />A club could easily row an eight for 12K per day and rack up 108,000m a day if you counted all members in the boat.<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />Paul Flack <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />If that's the case, Paul, I want to row in a dodecatuple

[make that dodectuple ]<br /><br />The Egyptian posters are in fact gone from the top of the Challenge Board, though they may be elsewhere in it. I wish them luck and good rowing.

[old] dadams · Post by **[old] dadams** » May 11th, 2005, 2:44 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ May 11 2005, 01:03 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br /><br />You sure you didn't just pick the "fastest" machine in the gym? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />There's only one.

[old] Dickie · Post by **[old] Dickie** » May 11th, 2005, 2:57 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(runningun @ May 11 2005, 12:10 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br />1. THE RANKINGS HAVE A FORMAL COMPONENT TO THEM AT THE VERY TOP. As the sport gets more popular, the nature of its competitions and records is going to change. This has happened in other sports. The truly informal rankings blend at the top into some really competitive "best in the world" and "world record" times. I want to KNOW that the "best in world" times are for real. I've seen a number that I knew in my gut were wrong (and C2 generally cleared them up), so I like the idea of requiring SOME verification before publication. One point: I assume we're talking about the top three in each sub-category that C2 already maintains (e.g., age group, sex, weight) but not more than that (e.g., NOT country, city, or other).<br /><br />Couldn't resist adding my bs to the pile! Such fun and all for free! Bert <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I agree with everything you say as it applies to records, however the yearly ranking lists are not records, there is a separate place for these, and the records have requirements that must be met. I cut out the above quote from your post because it is the one point in which I strongly disagree. The rankings have never had a formal component to them. They have always been for training purposes and no one has been allowed to claim a world record based on a training time (ask Dwayne about this).<br /><br />If it is Concept2's intention to bring world record status to events that do not enjoy widespread official competition, then more power to them, but, they already maintain a separate list of world record 2k times that must be set under strict rules, but this has never prevented anyone from posting their training times in the past, and that is what I object to.<br /><br />People should all be allowed to post their training times without restriction, if they also want to be recognized as a world record holder, then they must follow the rules for that honor.

[old] michael · Post by **[old] michael** » May 11th, 2005, 2:58 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dadams @ May 11 2005, 01:44 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>There's only one. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Well, that's one more than is available in my town.

[old] whp4 · Post by **[old] whp4** » May 11th, 2005, 3:23 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ehagberg @ May 11 2005, 04:50 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Godfried @ May 11 2005, 12:35 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(michael @ May 11 2005, 05:43 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>i row about 100,000 meters per day in water.<br />i'm an egyptian national champion in the 4- in 2005 and i won silver in the 8+ in 2005 too. </td></tr></table> </td></tr></table><br />Did you ask him to divide the meters rowed / number of rowers in the boat? <br /> </td></tr></table><br />No, but I did point out that even if he were rowing at about the speed of some of the fastest on-water 2k times (say 6 minutes), he'd have to keep that pace up for 50 of these 2k pieces, which would take 5 hours... at a fast 2k speed.<br /><br />I think maybe someone out there has the definition of "meter" confused somehow. Even if it were loosely-translated to mean "foot", that would still be quite a distance to row on-water every day (30.5k).<br /><br />Or maybe he's multiplying the meters rowed by the number in the boat for some reason. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Well, he did do a 3:14 marathon during the GMC, so it's plausible he could do 100k in a day if he put his mind to it. But I certainly wasn't eager to even look at the machine the day after I did 100k, much less repeat the stunt several times in a row! I see that both of the amazing Egyptians have disappeared from the 10k/day annual meters board...<br /><br />Paul Harris suggested another possibility - they row the 100k downstream, in a brisk current

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