18 Spm

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jul 9 2005, 03:15 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jul 9 2005, 03:15 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Here's a suggestion.<br /><br />Take a video of your rowing at 18 spm.<br /><br />Then speed it up double time, and see if that is the force-time profile you want to have at 36 spm. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />That's a silly suggestion (as usual), the force time curve is only something that is done on the drive and has nothing to do with the rate. i.e. You can produce exactly the same force profile at an 18 and a 36, the pace and ratio will be very different, as will the physiological requirement. You will however be able to maintain it at the 18 for a far longer period, because there will be considerably more time to recover between drives.<br /><br />It's been shown that a person can do 30 sec x 30 sec rest intervals for 60 minutes and achieve the same Average watts for the 60 minutes as doing a steady state 60 minute piece, and maintain a lower lactate level in spite of literally having to work twice as hard during each 30 second work interval. The 30 second work interval can be done at the same power level as their 2k pace. Surprising, but true. <br />

[[old] Mel Harbour]

Indeed international rowers up the rate primarily by shortening the recovery time (the drive shortens slightly too, but not by anything like as much).

[[old] RacerX]

[quote=RacerX,Jul 8 2005, 05:30 AM]<br />[quote=PaulS,Jul 7 2005, 11:14 AM]<br />[quote=slo_boat,Jul 7 2005, 06:14 AM]<br /><br />The problem with low rate, high power, training is that it leads to very poor recovery habits that are sluggish and since it is very unlikely that you will be pulling any harder at the higher rate, the only thing happening differently is speeding up the recovery, this messes up your ratio, and subsequently the "feel" that you are used to is gone, you become uncomfortable, and then the wheels come off (so to speak). <br />[/quote] <br />[/quote]<br /><br />I posted this in the other SPM discussion but will try it again here. I think this is starting to make sense to me. Finally.<br /> <br />1. Paul - Your comment above still confuses me a little as I noted above. I am trying to train myself not to rush the slide in the boat, and using a low SPM focuses me on both an effecient drive and controlled recovery. Can you clarify?<br /><br />2. at 18SPM I need to focus on a harder leg drive to maintain the same power (watt) output. When I take it up to 32, I am taking down the recovery significantly, pulling myself up the slide. It seems to me that John would be correct that the force curve would change. At a fast stroke rate the flywheel has not slowed as much on the catch, so the initial force would seem to be less. At 18 SPM you would have to apply more force to get the flywheel moving then you would at 32. Therefore wouldn't the force curve look different?<br /><br />3. My training is focused on rowing a single well - so the difference is that in the boat there is a major penalty for rushing the slide. The entry of the blades slows the run of the boat. Reading the Ergometer Technique section in "Rowing Faster", the basic workouts are done at SPM<20, and as the intensity increases the SPM rises. So one answer is to train at varying stroke rates. <br /><br />Aaron

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-RacerX+Jul 10 2005, 01:58 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(RacerX @ Jul 10 2005, 01:58 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1. Paul - Your comment above still confuses me a little as I noted above.  I am trying to train myself not to rush the slide in the boat, and using a low SPM focuses me on both an effecient drive and controlled recovery.  Can you clarify? </td></tr></table><br /><br />It's all about training the ratio between Drive and Recovery so when the boat speed increases (flywheel speed increases) and the drive naturally will take less time, the neuromuscular coordination that has been ingrained will let the recovery increase in speed also. This is one of the core reasons for training at a fixed meters per stroke (I'd suggest 10m, but opions vary), and also suggest strapless rowing to get the right muscles involved in the recovery.<br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2. at 18SPM I need to focus on a harder leg drive to maintain the same power (watt) output.  When I take it up to 32, I am taking down the recovery significantly, pulling myself up the slide. It seems to me that John would be correct that the force curve would change.  At a fast stroke rate the flywheel has not slowed as much on the catch, so the initial force would seem to be less. At 18 SPM you would have to apply more force to get the flywheel moving then you would at 32.  Therefore wouldn't the force curve look different? </td></tr></table><br />I'm <b>not</b> saying that "the force curce <i>can not</i> look different", but that it certainly does not <b>have</b> to look different. I'd suggest that there is such a thing as an <b>optimal force profile</b>, and that has to do with the shape of the curve (Left leaning haystack). The character of that curve should remain consistent, varying in amplitude, as the force and rate are increased. This leads to a smooth transition to higher power levels.<br /><br />The fact of the matter is that as the rate increases it is common for the force profile to change, but <b>"common"</b> does not mean it is what we want to happen. <br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3. My training is focused on rowing a single well - so the difference is that in the boat there is a major penalty for rushing the slide.  The entry of the blades slows the run of the boat.  Reading the Ergometer Technique section in "Rowing Faster", the basic workouts are done at SPM<20, and as the intensity increases the SPM rises.  So one answer is to train at varying stroke rates.  <br /><br />Aaron <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I have no use for the Erg, except to use it as a tool for increasing the speed of a boat, thus any recommendation I would make will be for that purpose. Since you have "Rowing Faster" read chapters 13 and 14 many times. Ignore the part about 'rowing with or against a current' (as it's rubbish), but those chapters contain the most useful information in the book, IMO.<br /><br />Of course it's good to train at various stroke rates, you don't seriously think that I have ever suggested otherwise, do you? One my favorite drills in our 2x is low pressure/high rate paddling, this involves what would be considered a "very rushed" recovery, and "very low" handle force, litterally reversing the ratio. To do this well, you must have very good control over all aspects of the stroke as well as exceptional timing.<br /><br />Finally, once the stroke starts, there is no "beginning" or "end", every aspect must be blended smoothly together in a continuous coordinated effort, there is some work going on all the time.<br /><br />Any better?

[[old] RacerX]

[quote=PaulS,Jul 10 2005, 07:34 AM]<br />[quote=RacerX,Jul 10 2005, 01:58 AM]1.<br /><br />Any better? <br />[/quote]<br /><br />Yes, much clearer. I was a little confused as I indicated above, but probably took the original comment somewhat out of context. I have been doing quite a bit of strapless 10meters per stroke work, very helpful...<br /><br />Aaron