16k/60mins - strength training advice

[Spinal]

Hello; please help with advice re: strength training.

I’m aiming for a 16k/60 mins sometime this year. Started C2 again last year; can’t quite reach my late-20s times but since starting again have managed 17.59/5k and 8133/30mins. This year I’ve done a 2.54 marathon and 15725/60mins. But my 100m and 1000m times are relatively much slower. Can’t see that I can improve aerobic capacity that much more (or at least not by the 275m needed, given age, full time job, etc) so I think I need to build muscular strength/power and I’d appreciate help with what weights sessions to do at home. Have dumbbells only (!) and a low boredom threshold. I can run/row to exhaustion but lack determination with weights. Was thinking x2 per week.

Any advice of home-based exercises, sets, reps, how heavy, etc, all gratefully received. Thank you
Neil

Not at all, but I wanted to make clear why I recommended to add more slow work on the rower and not adding strength training.

You come from a gym strength background and have success by combining 4h rowing, ~4 1/2h gym training..... but the OP who is clearly aerobically fit, wants to get stronger and doesn't currently have a strength programme should do more slow rowing?

[Cricketbat]

Hi everyone,
Thanks so much for your replies. Sorry for not posting sooner. This was my first post and I hadn’t realised it had been approved and was live!
I’m at work now but will look forward to read through everything this evening.
Many thanks again!

[Sakly]

Hello; please help with advice re: strength training.

I’m aiming for a 16k/60 mins sometime this year. Started C2 again last year; can’t quite reach my late-20s times but since starting again have managed 17.59/5k and 8133/30mins. This year I’ve done a 2.54 marathon and 15725/60mins. But my 100m and 1000m times are relatively much slower. Can’t see that I can improve aerobic capacity that much more (or at least not by the 275m needed, given age, full time job, etc) so I think I need to build muscular strength/power and I’d appreciate help with what weights sessions to do at home. Have dumbbells only (!) and a low boredom threshold. I can run/row to exhaustion but lack determination with weights. Was thinking x2 per week.

Any advice of home-based exercises, sets, reps, how heavy, etc, all gratefully received. Thank you
Neil

Not at all, but I wanted to make clear why I recommended to add more slow work on the rower and not adding strength training.

You come from a gym strength background and have success by combining 4h rowing, ~4 1/2h gym training..... but the OP who is clearly aerobically fit, wants to get stronger and doesn't currently have a strength programme should do more slow rowing?

Exactly.
Probably you have read why I suggest it this way, I gave an explanation for it.

[Tsnor]

Low HR steady state seems to be thrown out as the default answer to every question.

It does seem to be, here and on other rowing forums (Rowing Illustrated; Reddit). Pity.

Do you think it's the wrong answer here?

I'm not Spinal, but I think so as it is in any situation where the athlete is looking for advanced performance, not just general health and fitness.

Both science and tracked elite athlete training seems to point hard at Low HR steady state for people doing endurance sports and working out enough that overreach is a consideration.

Saying this over and over doesn't make it true. The "science" and the "tracking" of athletes is fuzzy enough that you can squint and see whatever you want. Making a vague statement that "studies show" what works for marathon runners or referencing a single speed skater aren't proof, especially for rowers. Everyone can express an opinion, but that doesn't make it "science".

For the OP:

Mike Caviston is a world famous coach, both of rowing and military training. His opinions count much more than mine. Google him.

Mike:

OP wants 16km in 60 mins ( 1:52.5, 245.8 watts). He's very close at 15,725m (1:54.4, 233.8 watts). What training would you have him do to gain the extra 12 watts ?

I don't understand the squinting needed to see the training needed is additional aerobic base, but would be very excited to learn what it is. (I personally would rather row at 85% than 70% for my long pieces. But that approach failed hard when I tried it. And when I tried to find out why most all references I found said my training would fail the way it failed.)

[Tsnor]

...
1. Polarized works. (The original 3 zone or the newly adopted 2 zone with tempo, sweetspot and threshold incorporated )

LOL, and agree with your edit. The original polarized "avoid sweetspot/threshold" has proven wrong. The concept of much work below LT1/VT1 does seem robust. From the pros and cons, the article was using Polarized in it's original sense (no work in the middle) and considered Pyramid non-polarized. I agree with that, and I don't follow a strict polarized approach - I'm more pyramid on the erg, and very threshold OTW.

[Spinal]

The concept of much work below LT1/VT1 does seem robust.

Whether it's polarised, pyramidal or threshold they all share this theme.

[jamesg]

Can’t see that I can improve aerobic capacity that much more
so I think I need to build muscular strength/power

Power certainly, wanting to go faster, so in any case you'd also need the extra aerobic capacity.

Why not just increase rating and/or improve technique? Your existing 5k and 60' results and their data (Work and Rating) should allow a reliable design.

[Cricketbat]

Thank you everyone for taking the time to reply and robustly discuss this. Interesting to hear so many opinions. Perhaps I should have been clearer in my original post; you're absolutely right to say that I could increase my aerobic base (!) but the reality is that I'm a full-time NHS consultant and alongside family, can't realistically spend that much longer on the rower than I already do, and stay married. Currently that is not a huge amount really; 2-4 sessions a week, usually for 30-45 mins (more at weekends lately, as have been training for the marathon). Most of it recently has been HR 150 (max is 194) at 20 SPM. For what it's worth I cycle 30 mins each way to work every weekday.

My thought process was that if I'm stronger per unit mass/volume of muscle, it'd be metabolically/physiologically 'easier' to hold a higher pace assuming the same aerobic base? Is that flawed thinking? Also a bit of strength training (I do none at the moment) would (as pointed out) help me to avoid age-related sarcopenia. I don't have a documented 500m time from my earlier rowing incarnation, but it was about 1.30. I'm quite a way off that at the moment, yet my longer distance times between then and now are closer, so my thinking was that I might even be a bit more aerobically fit than I was 15 years ago (or more perhaps willing to dig in) but haven't got the intrinsic power/heft to pull harder. I feel like I'm weak at the moment. Fit, but weak. Also, once I've done 16k/60min, the Rugby Test is next....

So I think my take-home so far would be to ideally do more long/slow aerobic work, and that a bit of strength work will not hurt but might not improve things for a 1-hour test as much as I'd hoped?

With that in mind, what strength training would you recommend for rowing (generic) please? 1-2 sessions a week (20-30 mins) with a set of dumbbells (can add/subtract weights) and a dip bar in the garden...

[Tsnor]

.. can't realistically spend that much longer on the rower than I already do, and stay married. .. 2-4 sessions a week, usually for 30-45 mins (more at weekends lately,... I cycle 30 mins each way to work every weekday.

My thought process was that if I'm stronger per unit mass/volume of muscle, it'd be metabolically/physiologically 'easier' to hold a higher pace assuming the same aerobic base? Is that flawed thinking?

Also a bit of strength training (I do none at the moment) would (as pointed out) help me to avoid age-related sarcopenia.

So I think my take-home so far would be to ideally do more long/slow aerobic work, and that a bit of strength work will not hurt but might not improve things for a 1-hour test as much as I'd hoped?

With that in mind, what strength training would you recommend for rowing (generic) please? 1-2 sessions a week (20-30 mins) with a set of dumbbells (can add/subtract weights) and a dip bar in the garden...

LOL, I'm going to retract my long/slow rowing advice. Don't reduce your HR on your rowing sessions. You are getting your excellent aerobic base from cycling not rowing. At 2-4 rowing sessions a week (45 minutes each) I'd make 2 or 3 of those hard (intervals or longer threshold sessions) and maybe make one rowing session a longer/slower session if you can make time for it. If your 20 minute lifting time comes from your rowing time I'd look at hard intervals (say 20 x 40 seconds on, 20 seconds off) so you can keep the rowing load up while shortening the rowing duration.

If you want to improve your 60 minute power I'd add a little distance to the bike commute targeting a gradual increase in biking time from your current 30 mins x twice daily to 45 mins twice daily. I think it's the biking (5 hours/week) that is giving your 60 minute power. (aside: do you look at C2's ranking? You are sitting at roughly 90% percentile for 60 minute meters for your age group. Nice. https://log.concept2.com/rankings/2023/ ... s=verified)

For strength training youtube will have videos on goblet squats, dumbbell squats, dumbbell deadlift. There are also many non-rowing focused exercises that will help you keep balanced muscles (bench press, shoulder press, etc). Strength comes from few reps, google "lift heavy". That exhausts my knowledge, I'm posting to retract the long/slow rowing advice. Good thing others know much more on strength training.

[Mike Caviston]

What training would you have him do to gain the extra 12 watts?... I don't understand the squinting needed to see the training needed is additional aerobic base, but would be very excited to learn what it is.

I have a hard time taking you seriously at this point. I've made my approach very clear during several previous exchanges, and there is plenty of additional explanation on this forum which you can find with your precious Google or simply use the forum's own search function. Build a program around a couple of high-intensity interval sessions (and most people don't execute their interval training as effectively as they could, but that's a different topic), gradually adding as much LSD-style training as time and motivation permit. But despite your claims that top endurance athletes spend 90% of their training at "very, very low effort" or "rediculously easy" paces; "low HR steady state" (or any guidelines based on HR) isn't the answer. The endurance sessions need to be more challenging and robust. Of course you need to be able to recover from them, but training can and should be challenging enough to require effort and determination and still allow recovery. Warm up properly, put in the work, cool down, eat a good meal, get some sleep. Repeat.

I personally would rather row at 85% than 70% for my long pieces. But that approach failed hard when I tried it.

I would've gone from 70 to 71% rather than jump all the way to 85%. Well, I wouldn't look at % (of HR, I presume) at all, but my increases are very gradual and incremental. Baby steps. For long pieces, start with something manageable (10K?) at a pace that is challenging but not exhausting. Each week, add 250m or go faster by .1 sec/500m; be patient and resist the urge to build more rapidly when things are going smoothly in the early stages. Later, when gains seem harder, don't increase for a week or two or even drop back a week or two if necessary until the load seems manageable again. With this slow, steady rate of improvement you can make substantial progress in six months. People seem to confuse "work hard" with "go all-out". I see the advice "don't go chasing PRs". I never chased PRs, I slowly walked up to them and overtook them without drama. Years ago in my prime I did one or two 60-minute sessions and a 25-30K piece every week. In any given season, following my methodical schedule, at some point each workout would be a new PR by default. Next season I'd start the new schedule at paces slower than PR, but faster than starting paces from the previous season. Eventually, new PRs. (The same approach for interval sessions.)

[Tsnor]

What training would you have him do to gain the extra 12 watts?... I don't understand the squinting needed to see the training needed is additional aerobic base, but would be very excited to learn what it is.

I have a hard time taking you seriously at this point. I've made my approach very clear during several previous exchanges, and there is plenty of additional explanation on this forum which you can find with your precious Google or simply use the forum's own search function. Build a program around a couple of high-intensity interval sessions (and most people don't execute their interval training as effectively as they could, but that's a different topic), gradually adding as much LSD-style training as time and motivation permit.

I was asking your recommendation for OP, who was substituting barbell training for rowing in an attempt to improve their 60 minute rowing performance. You did not like the "row more, build aerobic base" answer.

New information surfaced. The OP rows 3 x 45 mins and bikes 10 x 30 minutes per week. If I was coach I'd have him get up 10 minutes earlier, add the 10 mins to his bike to work. Adding barbells to the rowing program seems good once a week same day as a hard rowing day. I would not recommend reducing his current training load on any of his 3 x 45 minute rows to long/slow levels.

(FWIW I am very comfortable with my training plan. It is very similar to what you outline above. The only area where your directions above and my plan differ is the set point of the LSD sessions.) No intent ever to troll you or anyone else. Often people have not read past posts so there is value in repeating things (or pointing to past threads).

[Cricketbat]

I’ve really enjoyed reading the debate above, thanks to all for your thoughts.

Mike, I totally take your point – my PBs at 30mins (my favourite and most-rowed session both now and in my 20’s) have all come without intent. For whatever reasons the cardio-respiratory-musculo-biochemical stars have aligned and on some days I have just gone faster. It’s a great feeling when it happens! I have only done a handful of 60 mins so maybe if I do enough, eventually I’ll have a similar experience.

I had to work ridiculously hard (physically and mentally) to get sub-18 for my 5k last year. It’d be interesting to know whether, if I did enough of them too, I’d have the same experience and on one happy day comfortably come in at 17.something. I don’t do enough of these either because they hurt so much, so maybe I’ll never find out!!

Here is a question though – do you think there’s an inflection point (in time or distance) below which you just have to push yourself as hard as possible for PBs; perhaps where anaerobic metabolism is dominant?

[iain]

Mike, I totally take your point – my PBs at 30mins (my favourite and most-rowed session both now and in my 20’s) have all come without intent. For whatever reasons the cardio-respiratory-musculo-biochemical stars have aligned and on some days I have just gone faster. It’s a great feeling when it happens!

I'm sure Mike will correct me if I am mistaken, but that is not quite what I took from his posts. Having read the full WP thread where Mike examines most aspects of his training philosophy, what I thought that he was refering to was a policy of intentionally improving times for each session a very small amount each time through the active training season. So say you repeat a given session every 2 weeks and aim to increase the pace by 0.1S/500m each time, if the training is uninterupted in a 40 week season you will be 2S/500m faster at the end of the season than you were at the start.If you start 1S/500m slower than your best for the session, this would mean that over the course of the season you have improved your PB for the session by 1S/500m. I think the same goes for derivative sessions, so if you improve the 4 x 1k r5' from an average pace of 1:44 to 1:42, you might find 2k average pace say 0.5S faster (I can't remember Mike's suggested relation), then that means that if you end the season doing a 2k, you would target 1:41.5 average ie 6:46 which may well be a PB. In this way he quoted his training log where his 40s Lwt WR of (I think) 6:18 was merely recorded as that time for a 2k!

If I am right in this interpretation, Mike is not saying PBs should be left to chance, quite the contrary, getting faster is the result of a very disciplined improvement in pace over all distances that will lead to PBs. This is not left to chance, every session has a very precise target pace and this should be matched as close to exactly as possible (down to pace for each portion of each interval).

[Mike Caviston]

Here is a question though – do you think there’s an inflection point (in time or distance) below which you just have to push yourself as hard as possible for PBs; perhaps where anaerobic metabolism is dominant?

I can think of three scenarios that might cause me to really challenge my limits: 1) trying to set a PR for a particular piece; 2) trying to be faster than my opponents in a race; 3) trying to achieve the best performance I could possibly achieve (my physiological and mental limits determined by my training up to that point). Scenario 2 depends on the competition; sometimes you can win without fully extending yourself. Scenario 1 (as I described above) will probably be a challenge but not necessarily require a maximum effort, since a PR is only the best I've done so far and not necessarily the best I could ever do. The third scenario by definition would require you to push yourself to your limits and beyond. At some point, the first and third scenarios would have to converge.
[I should also mention I've never really monitored PRs for distances shorter than 2K - I know I have them, but I'd have to dig around to find out what they are.]