2nd 5K-still newbie

[dutchcantoo]

I guess that last column is heart rate. From the most recent formula for maximum heart rate of women as a function of age, HRmax = 206 - 0.88*age, you must have dug deep in the final 1K and have an exceptionally high HRmax .

it is fair to say though that relying on any formula to estimate MHR and thus training caps is pretty much useless and that has been shown to be so by any simple investigation. There are two 60yo women on this thread - one has demonstrated at least 167 and one 164 when the quoted formula says mhr is 153?? (220-age is actually more accurate in these two examples but that formula is equally unreliable)
I guess I don't really get the search for a meaningful formula when they are all so easily debunked and when there is actually a relatively simple way of getting an accurate one - just do it. A full on 5k to 30' will get pretty close to the mark without any fancy measuring or lactates etc. A 7x 4'/1'R is probably the best benchmark.

https://analytics.rowsandall.com/2016/1 ... eart-rate/

I get this, but clearly 167, although I reached that HR without dying, is not a sustainable MHR for me. How does one figure out what their MHR is? Pardon my ignorance here, but what does 7x 4'/1'R mean?

[dutchcantoo]

[/quote]
Totally agree!
My best friend is 1 year older than me, his MHR is around 210, mine 174, a difference of about 35. No matter if a formula is on average halfway exact, if we would trust a formula with only age and m/f as variables at least one of us would be very far away from his real MHR. The only way to get a reliable MHR is a test, and if that's not possible (medical issues for example) I would recommend training by feel, or guidelines like "if you can talk in whole sentences or sing a short song during training you train your aerobic base", it's propably not very accurate but prevents from pushing too hard too often.
[/quote]

Well, I definitely couldn't have sung a song at 167. I can't sing a song at 67. Like I mentioned, I've not paid attention to my MHR until now, but clearly there is some benefit to training in a certain range. Tomorrow I'm back on the machine, so I'd like to have some idea of what I should be reaching and avoiding as far as MHR goes.

[MartinSH4321]

I guess that last column is heart rate. From the most recent formula for maximum heart rate of women as a function of age, HRmax = 206 - 0.88*age, you must have dug deep in the final 1K and have an exceptionally high HRmax .

it is fair to say though that relying on any formula to estimate MHR and thus training caps is pretty much useless and that has been shown to be so by any simple investigation. There are two 60yo women on this thread - one has demonstrated at least 167 and one 164 when the quoted formula says mhr is 153?? (220-age is actually more accurate in these two examples but that formula is equally unreliable)
I guess I don't really get the search for a meaningful formula when they are all so easily debunked and when there is actually a relatively simple way of getting an accurate one - just do it. A full on 5k to 30' will get pretty close to the mark without any fancy measuring or lactates etc. A 7x 4'/1'R is probably the best benchmark.

https://analytics.rowsandall.com/2016/1 ... eart-rate/

I get this, but clearly 167, although I reached that HR without dying, is not a sustainable MHR for me. How does one figure out what their MHR is? Pardon my ignorance here, but what does 7x 4'/1'R mean?

MHR isn't sustainable, but you can use it to estmate HR bands, like 60-70% of MHR for UT2 (base endurance)... If you search for HR bands you'll find a lot of info here.
7x4'/1'R means 7 intervals of 4 minutes with 1 minute rest between intervals.

[mitchel674]

Well, I definitely couldn't have sung a song at 167. I can't sing a song at 67. Like I mentioned, I've not paid attention to my MHR until now, but clearly there is some benefit to training in a certain range. Tomorrow I'm back on the machine, so I'd like to have some idea of what I should be reaching and avoiding as far as MHR goes.

As for tomorrow, you're not going to get on the rower each day and try to push it to the max. You just completed a tough 5k piece. You said you did some easy work for 2 weeks and wanted to challenge yourself with a 5k. Most training is not done at maximal effort or anywhere near MHR. Why not go for an easier steady state row tomorrow? Something like 30 minutes at 20-22 spm at a 2:40 pace.

[Dangerscouse]

To use poker parlance, you've got to know when to stick, and when to twist. A really tough session will really tax your Central Nervous System, especially if you're getting a migraine. Take it easy, and I'd not think about doing anything other than slow & steady sessions for about 7-10 days.

You can only train as hard as you can rest, so don't get seduced into thinking more is better; quality over quantity every time.

It sounds like 167 could, more or less, be a reliable guide for MHR, and you should try and stay under 158 (95%) unless you're trying for a PB / TT. Edging 90% (150) will be really tiring, unless you keep it under circa eight minutes with a decent rest to get your HR back down to an acceptable level.

I find HR can be useful, but only as part of a wider range of information eg. RPE (rate of perceived exertion), pace, previous sessions etc. There are so many variables in play, it's very subjective for what is the Goldilocks zone for each of us, so I always advocate to analyse, assess and adjust.

[Citroen]

To use poker parlance, you've got to know when to stick, and when to twist.

"Twist" is a blackjack term. "Raise" and "Call" are the poker terms.

Most of your poker references are in:

You've got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
And know when to run
You never count your money
When you're sittin' at the table
There'll be time enough for countin'
When the dealin's done

[dingrr]

dutchcantoo, As far as headaches, I've found they're more related to dehydration than efforts. You might want to look at your water intake, along with electrolytes.

[dutchcantoo]

To use poker parlance, you've got to know when to stick, and when to twist. A really tough session will really tax your Central Nervous System, especially if you're getting a migraine. Take it easy, and I'd not think about doing anything other than slow & steady sessions for about 7-10 days.

You can only train as hard as you can rest, so don't get seduced into thinking more is better; quality over quantity every time.

It sounds like 167 could, more or less, be a reliable guide for MHR, and you should try and stay under 158 (95%) unless you're trying for a PB / TT. Edging 90% (150) will be really tiring, unless you keep it under circa eight minutes with a decent rest to get your HR back down to an acceptable level.

I find HR can be useful, but only as part of a wider range of information eg. RPE (rate of perceived exertion), pace, previous sessions etc. There are so many variables in play, it's very subjective for what is the Goldilocks zone for each of us, so I always advocate to analyse, assess and adjust.

Thanks for this Dangerscouse. Good advice here and I plan on following it. I think tomorrow will be a nice row with some good music without thinking too much about HR or performance. I'll still track my HR because I'm curious at what rate I can comfortably row for say a half hour.

[dutchcantoo]

dutchcantoo, As far as headaches, I've found they're more related to dehydration than efforts. You might want to look at your water intake, along with electrolytes.

Well, I didn't eat or drink before or during this 5k. Afterwards, lots. The migraine came on later in the evening and persisted through the night. It could be related to dehydration, but I wonder, since it came on so much later.

[dutchcantoo]

As for tomorrow, you're not going to get on the rower each day and try to push it to the max. You just completed a tough 5k piece. You said you did some easy work for 2 weeks and wanted to challenge yourself with a 5k. Most training is not done at maximal effort or anywhere near MHR. Why not go for an easier steady state row tomorrow? Something like 30 minutes at 20-22 spm at a 2:40 pace.

This is something I'm still coming to grips with. Even while doing the easy work, I found it took a fair bit of effort to get the technique right. I'm using the graph a fair bit on the rower, working to get a consistent 'haystack' with each stroke. I'm new, and I'm not entirely sure how much effort is too much, therefore I'm using the heart rate moniter as a guide. But I will follow this advice along with the others I've received. I really want to get the most out of my rower, and in theory it all seems so simple, but I'm discovering there's so much more to it than sit and row.

[Dangerscouse]

To use poker parlance, you've got to know when to stick, and when to twist.

"Twist" is a blackjack term. "Raise" and "Call" are the poker terms.

Most of your poker references are in:

You've got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
And know when to run
You never count your money
When you're sittin' at the table
There'll be time enough for countin'
When the dealin's done

Yep, fair point. I stand corrected

[lindsayh]

I guess I don't really get the search for a meaningful formula when they are all so easily debunked and when there is actually a relatively simple way of getting an accurate one - just do it. A full on 5k to 30' will get pretty close to the mark without any fancy measuring or lactates etc. A 7x 4'/1'R is probably the best benchmark.
https://analytics.rowsandall.com/2016/1 ... eart-rate/

I get this, but clearly 167, although I reached that HR without dying, is not a sustainable MHR for me. How does one figure out what their MHR is? Pardon my ignorance here, but what does 7x 4'/1'R mean?

There is a good explanation within the link above about MHR - the most well regarded way of determining it is the protocol developed at the Australian institute of sport which involves setting up an interval piece with 4' on and 1'rest. Each interval is done harder than the previous one and the last is done flat out to failure. The reality is though that you have a pretty good idea already and the 167 that you reached is likely close to the mark.
The main point of knowing your MHR is to use it to determine your HR training zones - there is a lot of information here to help but basically if you want to get fitter then training in a zone of 70-80% of mhr for 80% of your training is the best recipe. Pushing too hard too often is counter productive but going hard to >90% of max is good if you are getting serious.
The best way of determining those zones is to know your MHR and your resting rate (RHR) which is simply the lowest you get at complete rest. The difference is your heart rate reserve and the %% is taken from that and rhr added back. So if your mhr is 180 and rhr is 60 your HRR is 120. 80% of 120 is 96 so your 80% cap is 156.
The main message is to slow down and not race your training - long and steady is the key.

there is some great information on this forum - here is a good place to start - follow the links as well
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=185257

[dutchcantoo]

I guess I don't really get the search for a meaningful formula when they are all so

There is a good explanation within the link above about MHR - the most well regarded way of determining it is the protocol developed at the Australian institute of sport which involves setting up an interval piece with 4' on and 1'rest. Each interval is done harder than the previous one and the last is done flat out to failure. The reality is though that you have a pretty good idea already and the 167 that you reached is likely close to the mark.
The main point of knowing your MHR is to use it to determine your HR training zones - there is a lot of information here to help but basically if you want to get fitter then training in a zone of 70-80% of mhr for 80% of your training is the best recipe. Pushing too hard too often is counter productive but going hard to >90% of max is good if you are getting serious.
The best way of determining those zones is to know your MHR and your resting rate (RHR) which is simply the lowest you get at complete rest. The difference is your heart rate reserve and the %% is taken from that and rhr added back. So if your mhr is 180 and rhr is 60 your HRR is 120. 80% of 120 is 96 so your 80% cap is 156.
The main message is to slow down and not race your training - long and steady is the key.

there is some great information on this forum - here is a good place to start - follow the links as well
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=185257

Thanks so much lindsayh. Lots of helpful information here. 'Long and steady is the key' will be my new mantra.

[Popcorn]

I am a woman of the same age, not much of an athlete but using the erg quite regularly the past three years, and my heart rate up goes up to about 164 at the end of a hard set. I only started using a heart rate monitor recently and I didn't expect the numbers to be so high, either, just based on those formulas.

Glad to read this actually. It can be a bit alarming to see heart rate rising. Clearly there's a moment to just slow down, but because I was doing the 5k, I wasn't willing to do that. I wear the heart rate moniter every time I row, but seldom pay attention to it. This was the first time I noticed how high it was, because I could feel that I couldn't sustain my effort much longer.
How often do you row in a week and do you follow video workouts or just row on your own?

I usually row 4 times in a week and I follow a class over zoom. I don't feel like I have great endurance so I have been trying to do more longer slower work. I had been trying to estimate effort with perceived rate of exertion, (can you talk or sing a little) but it has been interesting having the heart rate monitor and since I got it, I have slowed way down for steady state rowing to keep the heart rate lower. It was surprising at first to see the rate go up so high and I can't maintain that kind of effort for very long. But if the stroke rate goes up to 28 spm, the heart rate will go up to 160 or so after the first minute. It's reassuring to see the HR go down rapidly when I take the pressure off.