30' row for distance

[maestroak]

I know I'll probably get chastised for this but one thought is that for your size your stroke rate might be kind of low. I could see even with decent form you may be in the situation of losing a lot of momentum on the flywheel with each pull. Maybe kicking up the SPM a bit and making each stroke less taxing and it might help prevent your issues. I know for me getting down toward r20 at 2:00/500 is a much tougher slog than up at 26. Also, as someone else pointed out, 2:00/500m is a very aggressive goal all circumstances considered so shouldn't be too disheartened that it has happened yet.

-Steve

[psychoswim]

I know I'll probably get chastised for this but one thought is that for your size your stroke rate might be kind of low. I could see even with decent form you may be in the situation of losing a lot of momentum on the flywheel with each pull. Maybe kicking up the SPM a bit and making each stroke less taxing and it might help prevent your issues. I know for me getting down toward r20 at 2:00/500 is a much tougher slog than up at 26. Also, as someone else pointed out, 2:00/500m is a very aggressive goal all circumstances considered so shouldn't be too disheartened that it has happened yet.

-Steve

I think my best 30' last year was 25-26 average, I die really fast if I try to go any higher yet still use some leg power, and if I don't use leg power than I'm much slower. Our coach wants us to work at around those rates. In comparison, when I train on my paddling erg, I stroke at around 52 for a 10k (so 38' piece) but it's a very different movement.

I know 2:00 average is aggressive but I'm convinced I can get there if I can just get over the bump.. and have a fast machine which mine isn't right now.

Thank you everyone for your input.

[at1839]

I know 2:00 average is aggressive but I'm convinced I can get there.

You will. I guess you'll but there is some sport specific training needed, as said. Meanwhile, look at ranking. 7.5 k IS aggressive a LOT for your figure.

http://log.concept2.com/rankings/2017/rower/30?gender=F

And you're better in the Lightweight range than Heavyweight.

P.

[G-dub]

To be great on the erg obviously requires training on the erg from a specificity standpoint. Obviously there are many beasts out there that carry over phenomenal fitnes and body proportions and put up great times that many of us can only marvel at. But the rest of us have to spend good time on the erg building the muscles and fitness of erging. You will get there for sure. And I wouldn't under estimate the impact that staring at the PM has on percieved exertion. I find I can handle more "pain" when I am mountain biking for instance and time goes by faster.

[psychoswim]

Went 30' again tonight hiding everything but the rate and timer. A very steady 7084m without taking any easier stroke anywhere. 2:07.2-2:07.7-2:07.2-2:07.0-2:05.7 is much better already, just lacking some speed. I did do heavy deadlifts this morning and another 30' row last night so not fresh at all.

Filmed a short warmup just prior.. I had been trying to bend my knees slightly less not to go over my feet but judging from the video, I took it a bit too far so increased the flexion a bit in my 30'. I know one of my issues is my hands wanting to dip on the recovery, on long pieces my traps can't hold it, but working on it.

Advice?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o5mSiorQ8g

[G-dub]

I would want to be over my quads more to get more length. You are pretty straight up and down and seem to use arms to start the stroke. I would think about hinging over my quads, loading; then pushing the footplates away like you would the ground on a deadlift. Then the back swings then the arms pull in the last bit.

[psychoswim]

I would want to be over my quads more to get more length. You are pretty straight up and down and seem to use arms to start the stroke. I would think about hinging over my quads, loading; then pushing the footplates away like you would the ground on a deadlift. Then the back swings then the arms pull in the last bit.

Strange that you would say that. My arms are completely relaxed until the end of the push, it's just that I engage my lats right before loading my legs as it makes my back stronger and protects my shoulders. I will try to hinge a bit more over my legs, but is there a point in trying to go further back with my back at the top?

[hjs]

Went 30' again tonight hiding everything but the rate and timer. A very steady 7084m without taking any easier stroke anywhere. 2:07.2-2:07.7-2:07.2-2:07.0-2:05.7 is much better already, just lacking some speed. I did do heavy deadlifts this morning and another 30' row last night so not fresh at all.

Filmed a short warmup just prior.. I had been trying to bend my knees slightly less not to go over my feet but judging from the video, I took it a bit too far so increased the flexion a bit in my 30'. I know one of my issues is my hands wanting to dip on the recovery, on long pieces my traps can't hold it, but working on it.

Advice?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o5mSiorQ8g

You say it yourself, bit short, looks strong, but on both side you cut the stroke short. Bit more knee bend and bit more backswing.

The other issue, is proberly just going to fast, simply get fitter, a hard 30 min is tough, if you have to back off you simply can,t handle that speed. Nothing magical about it.
Other point, you certainly should not race all your training.

[psychoswim]

Other point, you certainly should not race all your training.

I don't race all my training, it just happens that the 30' row is one of those test sessions. In our indoor training program, 1 rowing session a week is progressive intervals adding speed, then once every 2 weeks we do a "test" piece and send our results in. It's just one of the methods our paddling coach used to see how we're doing during the winter season. The 30' row only comes 3 times during the 18-week indoor season, as does the 15' row and the 2x8'. In the end, the times don't really matter (except personally), the pieces are just challenges. I do easier cardio through the week but just not rowing, I prefer paddling. Typical week will have 3 paddling erg sessions (2 of them easier drag, higher rate but not very muscle-hard and the other higher drag using more power), then 1 rowing intervals session, 1 swimming session (3.5ish km) and some hill runs or cross-country ski. Add weights and the fact I'm a medical resident and the hours are just missing to do anything else like easy rowing (unless I start work later for some reason and might have time to add a 15-20' easy row after weights).

[hjs]

Other point, you certainly should not race all your training.

I don't race all my training, it just happens that the 30' row is one of those test sessions. In our indoor training program, 1 rowing session a week is progressive intervals adding speed, then once every 2 weeks we do a "test" piece and send our results in. It's just one of the methods our paddling coach used to see how we're doing during the winter season. The 30' row only comes 3 times during the 18-week indoor season, as does the 15' row and the 2x8'. In the end, the times don't really matter (except personally), the pieces are just challenges. I do easier cardio through the week but just not rowing, I prefer paddling. Typical week will have 3 paddling erg sessions (2 of them easier drag, higher rate but not very muscle-hard and the other higher drag using more power), then 1 rowing intervals session, 1 swimming session (3.5ish km) and some hill runs or cross-country ski. Add weights and the fact I'm a medical resident and the hours are just missing to do anything else like easy rowing (unless I start work later for some reason and might have time to add a 15-20' easy row after weights).

Ok, if its a test, it can go "wrong" if it was easy and you could nail it every time you would not fully commit.

Part of your problem could be that train very versatile, fine ofcourse, but this way non of the movements become 100% natural. It certainly makes it tougher.

A few possible tips. Divide the piece in 5 min blocks, focus per block on the outcome.
If you have to slow a bit, do this on time, so you only have to slow a few seconds.
And last, try to get to 70% in on pace, from there its often doable and you see the end.

[psychoswim]

Ok, if its a test, it can go "wrong" if it was easy and you could nail it every time you would not fully commit.

Part of your problem could be that train very versatile, fine ofcourse, but this way non of the movements become 100% natural. It certainly makes it tougher.

A few possible tips. Divide the piece in 5 min blocks, focus per block on the outcome.
If you have to slow a bit, do this on time, so you only have to slow a few seconds.
And last, try to get to 70% in on pace, from there its often doable and you see the end.

Thank you. I have been trying to divide it in 5 min blocks, hardest are without surprise #4 and #5. I will keep working at it.

I know the versatile training makes it harder than being dedicated to one sport, but the variety is good for a few months. Once the ice thaws on the water, I'll be back to paddling 20+ hours per week with some weight lifting and not much more until the fall. Since paddling is my sport and I am training for 30 km races, it is harder to justify replacing paddling erg sessions with rowing

[hjs]

Since the erg is not your main goal, you proberly not overly think about, take it like it comes, use your main focus and energy for your number one sport. Although I get you find it annoying to not get it done "proberly"

Good luck

[G-dub]

I would want to be over my quads more to get more length. You are pretty straight up and down and seem to use arms to start the stroke. I would think about hinging over my quads, loading; then pushing the footplates away like you would the ground on a deadlift. Then the back swings then the arms pull in the last bit.

Strange that you would say that. My arms are completely relaxed until the end of the push, it's just that I engage my lats right before loading my legs as it makes my back stronger and protects my shoulders. I will try to hinge a bit more over my legs, but is there a point in trying to go further back with my back at the top?

Try rowing without your feet in the straps to see how it feels. Going further forward and back lengthen the distance the chain travels, but can also become inefficient. The guiding rule is 1:00 to 11:00 positions front to back (but I am pretty sure I hinge more forward at the catch and not as much at the end of the stroke). At the catch this can be controlled by not bringing your butt to your heels. You want to be in a squat position but not so deep that you can't push out of it. And you want to drive the legs out of the catch ahead of your unhinging - sort of like how you drive your feet through the floor on a dead lift, then the back opens. Or maybe a better example is a power clean. With your current stroke, your vertical back doesn't allow you length and it puts you in a less powerful position at the catch I think. Imagine doing a power clean without using the unhinging of the back at all. That is sort of what would happen in the rowing stroke if you didn't hinge over your legs.

[gregsmith01748]

HI,

I have some bad news for you...I think your technique looks good.

You legs-body-arms sequencing on drive looks great. Same thing in terms of your arms-body-legs sequence on recovery. You do a much better job getting into the body forward angle than I do. You initiate the drive very well. You maintain your body angle very consistently through the catch as you load up the drive.

The only area where you might be able to pick up some free speed is at the catch. Your body is right up against your thighs at the catch, but there is still a significant amount of space between your heels and the seat and your shins are short of vertical Compare to the concept2 technique video

http://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/t ... que-videos

Here's you at the catch...


Here's the catch position from the demo video.


The knee angle is controlled by three things:
1. ankle flexibility and how much you lift your heels
2. foot position (you might want to experiment with dropping a couple holes lower?)
3. knee separation at the catch. Most top female scullers (and guys too) will let their knees come apart a bit at the catch to enable a longer reach. In a boat, getting longer at the catch is the key to getting more speed out of the same amount of force.

You may want to experiment with these things a bit just sitting on the erg, holding the handle and trying to push further and further into the catch. That way you can make sure that you are getting more reach, but also that you are not doing something dumb like slumping down

Like I said, this is fine tuning. If you ever decide that this dragon boat stuff is getting old, you should try rowing. I think you'd do well.

[psychoswim]

HI,

I have some bad news for you...I think your technique looks good.

You legs-body-arms sequencing on drive looks great. Same thing in terms of your arms-body-legs sequence on recovery. You do a much better job getting into the body forward angle than I do. You initiate the drive very well. You maintain your body angle very consistently through the catch as you load up the drive.

The only area where you might be able to pick up some free speed is at the catch. Your body is right up against your thighs at the catch, but there is still a significant amount of space between your heels and the seat and your shins are short of vertical Compare to the concept2 technique video

The knee angle is controlled by three things:
1. ankle flexibility and how much you lift your heels
2. foot position (you might want to experiment with dropping a couple holes lower?)
3. knee separation at the catch. Most top female scullers (and guys too) will let their knees come apart a bit at the catch to enable a longer reach. In a boat, getting longer at the catch is the key to getting more speed out of the same amount of force.

You may want to experiment with these things a bit just sitting on the erg, holding the handle and trying to push further and further into the catch. That way you can make sure that you are getting more reach, but also that you are not doing something dumb like slumping down

Like I said, this is fine tuning. If you ever decide that this dragon boat stuff is getting old, you should try rowing. I think you'd do well.

Thank you.
I will try to play with your suggestions to get a better reach at the catch. I'm not sure I can move my feet lower still but will test it out. I thought ideally we wanted to avoid lifting the heels? I definitely lack some ankle flexibility (they're more flexible the other way from swimming).

True story.. When I stopped swimming I briefly considered rowing but I fell into dragon boat. My love for outrigger canoe has now surpassed it and I bought my own boat last year. I expect I'll be paddling for a long long time. I'll keep rowing in mind.