Ranger's training thread

[ranger]

What is so great about UT1 rowing with a light stroke (2 SPI below your natural stroking power),once you have learned to row well (for lwts, 13 SPI) at low drag (95 df.) is that your stroking power (11 SPI) just carries you along to 10 MPS (1:43 @ @ 29 spm) at top-end UT1.

And glory be, given that you can do 60min at top-end UT1, 1:43 is 17.5K for an hour.

That's pretty darn good, not the best, but above what I am shooting for (17.3K), and for a veteran of any weight, much less a lwt 60s veteran, better than anyone has ever done for an hour.

I suppose this is proof positive that no veteran has ever rowed well at low drag.

No lwt 60s veteran has ever pulled over 16K for 60min.

17.5K beats that--literally--by a mile (1500m).

ranger

[ranger]

You should also stop with this 'rowing well at low drag' nonsense since you're now saying you'll be racing at a df of 140+, which is certainly not low drag.

I don't know whether I will be racing at 140 df., although I suspect I will.

If it helps me go faster, no reason not to use the higher drag if I can do it for 2K without changing my technique.

140 df. is not unusually high at all.

It is certainly not max.

A middle of the road setting on a clean machine.

Setting 5?

Anyway, rowing 2Ks at 140 df. is off in the future.

This is the present.

I know that I am rowing well (13 SPI) at low drag (95 df.) because that's what I am doing now in my training.

I am rowing all of my meters at 95 df., and if I take a full stroke, I pull 13 SPI.

Lightening up a bit, I am doing very long distance rowing (FM, HM) at 95 df. and 11-12 SPI.

Long distance rowing is done with a light stroke, 2 SPI below your natural stroking power.

ranger

[Carl Watts]

So many "suspects" and so many "if's".

Perhaps you should enlighten me why you keep changing your DF. Pretty much keep mine at 136 these days which is down from my days of "Rowing badly" by comparison with it set at about 167, but I have not changed it now for about a year.

If anyone thinks I should change it to something else I would be interested in the reasons why. I know the "Typical" range is like 110-120 but would be interested in the reasons to go higher or lower as the case may be.

[mikvan52]

When was it that you last raced?

I have had the best 2K for my age and weight the last two years (6:41), without even preparing for it.

_Your_ age and weight division.

For a 58- and 59-year-old lwt, 6:41 is right around WR pace.

No one my age and weight has ever rowed that fast.

ranger

Not an answer to the intent of the question:
I'm looking for an answer to the question:
"when did you prepare to race and then, subsequently, race "fully trained".

Was it 5 years ago? How long?
Have you "learned to row" yet after ten years on your 'mechanical bull'


Save a hearse, ride the bull!
The (it's a) drag factor should be self-evident

It's funny that you are "happy" with everything but never put in an effort fully prepared...

[mikvan52]

So many "suspects" and so many "if's".

Perhaps you should enlighten me why you keep changing your DF. Pretty much keep mine at 136 these days which is down from my days of "Rowing badly" by comparison with it set at about 167, but I have not changed it now for about a year.

If anyone thinks I should change it to something else I would be interested in the reasons why. I know the "Typical" range is like 110-120 but would be interested in the reasons to go higher or lower as the case may be.

IMO:
Carl: You have great speed at 500m... 1:26
this seems to indicate that with your best form and training that you can better your 2k time. Part of this may be to use a lighter load (DF).
Again IMO: I would guess that your stroke is extremely strong at the front end. Using a lighter DF can force you to sustain the power through a patient and powerful extended application of pressure in the drive phase. Such a change in force application allows me to sustain evenly powered strokes for longer pieces.

I remember watching Rob Waddell setting a WR at the Reggie Lewis Arena in Boston... the dial was set on 3. It looked like he wasn't working or even breathing very hard. I stood behind a cordon directly in front of him and then went to inspect the machine right after he left. I was a high drag rower at the time and could barely break 7:00.. Emulating Rob's lower drag subsequently got me stronger erg performances from 5k to an hour many years later...

I feel that high drag factor tends to encourage people to "kill" the catch with too much effort... more effort that can be (or read "needs to be") sustained for 200+ strokes...
But... there are examples, too, of people who row on max drag and set WRs... I think that's the tougher road to follow.

Sometimes there gets to be sort of a carnival atmosphere in this sport... using the erg like driving a sledge hammer to ring the bell... What did the police chief say to the captain say when he saw Jaws, the Great White? ... " I think we're going to need a bigger boat.."
Big drag factor ≈ bigger hammer, some think... I say, use the right tool for the job.

[ranger]

"when did you prepare to race and then, subsequently, race "fully trained"

Oh.

Different question.

I have answered this one many times.

The last time I prepared to race and raced, fully trained, was 2003.

My project has been to learn to row well (13 SPI) at low drag (95 df.).

Racing doesn't help with that.

So there hasn't been any reason to prepare to race until I was done training.

I am preparing to race now, though.

My training is done.

I now row well (13 SPI) at low drag (95 df.).

Unprecedented stuff.

No veteran has ever rowed well.

60s lwts like you have missed it seven seconds per 500m, a mile over 60min, 3 SPI, etc.

ranger

[ranger]

It's funny that you are "happy" with everything but never put in an effort fully prepared

Naw.

It's not "funny" at all.

It's entirely understandable.

My goal has been to get a dozen seconds better over 2K.

At the _starting_ point of my training in 2003, I was four seconds under the 50s lwt WR, so about a dozen seconds over 2K better than you are now.

In recent times, at least, other than me, no male WR holder, 40 to 70, has ever gotten better--at all.

So I had to be careful to do my training in good order to have any hope of success.

It has been slow going, but, sure, I have been delighted with my training.

Fait accompli.

My training is now over.

I am just preparing to race.

Now, all I have to do is use my training to hit my targets on all of the fourteen 2K predictors: UT2, FM, HM, 60min, 10K, 30min, 6K, 5K, 1K, 500m, 8 x 500m, 4 x 1K, 4 x 2K, 30'r20.

Then I will be ready to race.

Racing itself, of course, is entirely redundant.

Erging is all about training and race preparation.

If you hit all of your targets on the 2K predictors, what you will do for 2K is a foregone conclusion, a no-brainer.

ranger

[mikvan52]

"when did you prepare to race and then, subsequently, race "fully trained"

Oh.

Different question.

I have answered this one many times.

The last time I prepared to race and raced, fully trained, was 2003.

This is the point, then...
Why so long to learn to row.. 8 effing years? (!)

[ranger]

Why so long to learn to row

Give it a try.

You'll see.

You miss it by nine or ten seconds per 500m, 100 watts, etc.

To row well, you need to pull 12 SPI at 34 spm for 2K, not 9 SPI @ 34 spm.

ranger

[atklein90]

Why so long to learn to row

Give it a try.

You'll see.

You miss it by nine or ten seconds per 500m, 100 watts, etc.

To row well, you need to pull 12 SPI at 34 spm for 2K, not 9 SPI @ 34 spm.

ranger

Yet Mike is FASTER than you! You must miss it by 11 or 12 seconds per 500!

Loser.

[ranger]

Yet Mike is FASTER than you!

Hardly.

At 55, Mike pulled 6:45, fully prepared.

I pulled 6:29.7, unprepared and still struggling with technique, just training at low rates, trying to learn how to row.

Now, as he is approaching 60, fully prepared, MIke pulls 6:50, perhaps even 6:55.

My struggles with technique are over, and I am now preparing to race.

We'll see, but fully prepared and rowing well at normal drag, I think I now might pull 6:16.

So, when all is said and done, in our 60s, the difference between our 2K times might approach 10 seconds per 500m.

1:34 vs. 1:44

ranger

[aharmer]

No, Mike IS faster than you. You cannot refute that. Sure, we can't say that you'll never be faster, but at some point you have to show it and quit talking about it. Until you show a piece indicating you are faster, you're not. Any idea when you might try the first FM? As in a date?

[ranger]

To row well, you need to pull 12 SPI at 34 spm for 2K, not 9 SPI @ 34 spm.

Mike--

So how would you go about doing that?

The difference is 10 seconds per 500m.

1:34 vs. 1:44

ranger

[ranger]

No, Mike IS faster than you. You cannot refute that. Sure, we can't say that you'll never be faster, but at some point you have to show it and quit talking about it. Until you show a piece indicating you are faster, you're not. Any idea when you might try the first FM? As in a date?

This is a severely mixed bag.

No, Mike IS faster than you. You cannot refute that.

No need to refute it again. I have already refuted it again and again.

Sure, we can't say that you'll never be faster, but at some point you have to show it

Sure. That's what I am training to do.

and quit talking about it

Naw. Nothing constrains talk. Talk is just social chit-chat. It's fun. It doesn't have anything to do with rowing.

Until you show a piece indicating you are faster, you're not

Not at all. I have all sorts of evidence that I am faster. What you are saying is that you just don't have access to this evidence yet. Sure, I understand. So it goes. We all like to be in the know. It is awkward to be in the dark, as you are on this matter.

Any idea when you might try the first FM? As in a date?

I am in no rush. Then again, I am certainly trying to get along as quickly as I can. Training is coming along great. I am also doing quite a bit of rowing at 29 spm rather than 25 spm, so there won't be much of a gap in time between a FM trial and HM, 60min, 10K, and 30min trials.

6K and 5K, which are AT races, are another matter. I might have to train for a while to get prepared for those.

ranger

[snowleopard]

At 55, Mike pulled 6:45, fully prepared.

I pulled 6:29.7, unprepared and still struggling with technique,

Mike was a walkabout lwt. You were fat.

Your technique was fit for purpose.

etc. etc.