Ranger's training thread

[ranger]

I am not in the 80-84 2k category

The decline with age of a second a year over 2K is a general trend.

It isn't specific to any age group.

For the 85s, it predicts a lwt 7:03, a hwt 6:40.

I'll have to wait 25 years, but when I get there, I'll see if I can oblige.

ranger

[ranger]

What do declining 2k scores have to do with nonathlon anomalies?

Anomalies disappear as history sorts itself out.

Age group records/standards in rowing are determined by decline with age.

This decline is regular, about a second a year over 2K, starting at 20.

All distance rowing events are related in regular ways to the 2K by "double the d, add 3."

Norming over populations, as the nonathlon does, just codifies the vagaries of history, which are not very relevant to these biological matters.

ranger

[ranger]

Gord Henry did 2:10 pace for the Head of the Charles back in 2002 and 2003, when he turned 50.

He did almost two minutes better than that 10 years earlier.

Gord, who designs and builds the Fluids, was a Canadian Olympian in the 1x back in 1988, when he was 34.

ranger

[becz]

Gord Henry did 2:10 pace for the Head of the Charles back in 2002 and 2003, when he turned 50.

He did almost two minutes better than that 10 years earlier.

Gord, who designs and builds the Fluids, was a Canadian Olympian in the 1x back in 1988, when he was 34.

ranger

Your continual comparison of race results across different years shows just how clueless you are about rowing, and racing in particular. Aside from physical ability, the race conditions, particularly at a regatta like the Head of the Charles, have a huge impact on the results. One year's times may be blazingly fast due to a prevailing tailwind and flat water, whereas the next year's conditions may be a raging head wind and terrible chop. You simply can't compare one year to the next.

[Nosmo]

This decline is regular, about a second a year over 2K, starting at 20.

In case anyone was fooled this is just plain wrong for any commonly understood definition of "about" and "is".

[ranger]

This decline is regular, about a second a year over 2K, starting at 20.

In case anyone was fooled this is just plain wrong for any commonly understood definition of "about" and "is".

Sure, as a historical generalization, it is wrong.

That's why it's not a historical generalization.

It's a biological generalization.

For the 60s, a lwt 6:38 (down from 6:42.5) and hwt 6:17 (down from 6:24) would align with this generalization.

It will be interesting to see what happens to these 60s WRs over the next decade or so.

For the 55s lwt, 6:33 (down from 6:38) would be in line with this generalization.

It will be interesting to see what happens to the 55s lwt WR this fall.

The shock will come with the 70s WRs, which (I think) will be revised down by 30 seconds over the next decade or so.

ranger

[ranger]

Gord Henry did 2:10 pace for the Head of the Charles back in 2002 and 2003, when he turned 50.

He did almost two minutes better than that 10 years earlier.

Gord, who designs and builds the Fluids, was a Canadian Olympian in the 1x back in 1988, when he was 34.

ranger

Your continual comparison of race results across different years shows just how clueless you are about rowing, and racing in particular. Aside from physical ability, the race conditions, particularly at a regatta like the Head of the Charles, have a huge impact on the results. One year's times may be blazingly fast due to a prevailing tailwind and flat water, whereas the next year's conditions may be a raging head wind and terrible chop. You simply can't compare one year to the next.

Gord did right about the same in 2002 and 2003, 2:10 pace.

You're right.

No, I don't assume that good conditions made him two minutes better over three miles when he was ten years younger.

I just assume he was faster when he was both younger and training harder.

ranger

[ranger]

It would be very refreshing to see somebody with talent for the sport not only willing to ask for help, but willing to post the results of their workouts in order to evaluate the workouts.

Why would I need to ask for help or need to have the forum evaluate my workouts in order to be the best?

I am already the best.

No one my age and weight came within 20 seconds of my 2K last year, even though I didn't prepare to race with any anaerobic work.

I already have a coach, the best coach in the world.

I assume that most forum members log in here to learn how to train from the best rowers, not that the best rowers log in here to learn how to train from forum members, most of whom can't row a lick.

ranger

[Nosmo]

This decline is regular, about a second a year over 2K, starting at 20.

In case anyone was fooled this is just plain wrong for any commonly understood definition of "about" and "is".

Sure, as a historical generalization, it is wrong.

That's why it's not a historical generalization.

It's a biological generalization.....

In case anyone is fooled, this is wrong for any commonly understood definition of "biological" and "generalization"

[pmacaula]

Gord Henry did 2:10 pace for the Head of the Charles back in 2002 and 2003, when he turned 50...He did almost two minutes better than that 10 years earlier...I don't assume that good conditions made him two minutes better over three miles when he was ten years younger. I just assume he was faster when he was both younger and training harder.

Good news ! HOCR does keep a record of winning times. Here they are for the GM-1x (50+) for the period in question:

1991 L. Klecatsky 19:38.5*
1992 L. Klecatsky 18:54.3*
1993 L. Klecatsky 19:58.1
1994 L. Klecatsky 19:12.7
1995 L. Klecatsky 19:24.7
1996 100 Year Storm
1997 L. Carter 19:34.1
1998 D. Howat 19:46.23
1999 R. Spousta 19:33.81
2000 R. Spousta 19:33.81
2001 K. Juurakko 19:15.170
2002 A. Flanders 19:56.269
2003 Robert Slocum 19:39.260
* denotes current or past course record.

If Gord were comparing his time in '92 to his time in '02 or '03, it is likely conditions were a pretty material contributor to the difference. Regardless, the year to year variation in winning times is huge. Notice that Klecatsky set course records in consecutive years and his '92 time remains the record for the GM1x division.

Agree that Gord was likely to have done a lot less training in 02/03 than 10 years earlier. He started Fluidesign in 2000. Startups do tend to consume every second of one's life.

It seems more than reasonable that even controlling for differences in conditioning, Gord would have declined from age 50 to 60, but I think it would be tough to draw general conclusions on the rate of age-releated decline using his comparison of his pre-Fluid results on a notoriously weather-dependent course to those from when he was deep in start-up mode.

All that stuff aside, I am most curious about your comment on age related decline starting at age 20.
It is pretty well known that 'good' scullers in their 30s compete in the Open category at HOCR & don't exactly take a back seat to the 20-somethings.

More broadly, the top elite scullers are almost all in their late 20s and early to mid 30s and international rowing has a whole category called U23 to provide international competition for those too young and undeveloped to compete in the open class.

This would suggest that age-related decline in rowing does not start until some time in one's 30s.

Cheers. Patrick.

[Nosmo]

This would suggest that age-related decline in rowing does not start until some time in one's 30s.

Sure if you want to make historical arguments not biological ones. Besides biologically zero is about the same as one and 20 is about the same as 30.
Ranger just assumed Gord "was faster when he was both younger and training harder." Of course you conclusion is different--you started from different assumptions. Start from the same assuptions and you will see ranger is right.
(you just can't argue with logic like that! )

[mikvan52]

So...Rich...
When's your first PUBLIC OTW outing (race with witnesses and independent timing)?

..or are you just a "one trick pony"?

REGISTRATION for Masters Nationals remains open. It's even during your vacation... Why not come on down to the Cooper River in Camden, NJ and get some experience?

[rjw]

It would be very refreshing to see somebody with talent for the sport not only willing to ask for help, but willing to post the results of their workouts in order to evaluate the workouts.

Why would I need to ask for help or need to have the forum evaluate my workouts in order to be the best?

I am already the best.

There has been no evidence of this. Granted, you are a very good age grouper but lately, as in the past 6 years, you have not done anything to claim this. If, I remember correctly, Rocket Roy holds the 55-59 LWT WR. You are still a ways away from that. (And I wont accept the age difference argument as you are still in the same category and last time I looked, these times are not adjusted for age in categories.

As far as having the forum evaluating your workouts, you do not do standard workouts so they can not be scrutinized, repeated or evaluated. Heck, you're not even ready to race yet.

By the way, you owe Henry $1000.

[Nosmo]

Why not come on down to the Cooper River in Camden, NJ and get some experience?

Same reason he didn't go to VT to row on the CT river to row with you and race the Black Fly. If he didn't have the guts to do that, he certainly won't show up at the nationals.
But you already knew that.

[aharmer]

It would be very refreshing to see somebody with talent for the sport not only willing to ask for help, but willing to post the results of their workouts in order to evaluate the workouts.

Why would I need to ask for help or need to have the forum evaluate my workouts in order to be the best?

I am already the best.

No one my age and weight came within 20 seconds of my 2K last year, even though I didn't prepare to race with any anaerobic work.

I already have a coach, the best coach in the world.

I assume that most forum members log in here to learn how to train from the best rowers, not that the best rowers log in here to learn how to train from forum members, most of whom can't row a lick.


ranger

This quote was from a different thread and was speaking to somebody else you old insecure douche.