45minute At An Average 175bpm: Fat Burning Or Not?

[[old] Steelhead]

This is a better explanation in my opinion: Fat Burning During Exercise: Can Ergogenics Change the Balance? John A. Hawley, PhDTHE PHYSICIAN AND SPORTSMEDICINE - VOL 26 - NO. 9 - SEPTEMBER 98 <br /><br /><a href='http://www.physsportsmed.com/issues/199 ... hawley.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.physsportsmed.com/issues/199 ... htm</a><br /><br />Mike

[[old] Steelhead]

<!--QuoteBegin-ljwagner+Dec 18 2005, 08:27 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ljwagner @ Dec 18 2005, 08:27 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->John, a question (!),<br /><br />"You are probably not going to deplete your glygogen stores burning only 600 calories a day though, so you don't need to worry so much about going at a higher intensity."<br /><br />  Some years ago, in weight workouts of 45 minutes or longer with not too much rest between sets (about a minute), I'd get to a point where I really needed a break. Really tired, just sit and recover for 5 minutes or so. Then I could continue as before.  What had I depleted that I needed this recovery period ?  Is that the glycogen ? <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Exercise Intensity and Fuel Use<br /><br />The relative contributions of fat and carbohydrate to energy vary with exercise intensity. Low-intensity activities such as walking strongly stimulate lipolysis from peripheral adipocytes, while intramuscular triglycerides contribute little or nothing to total energy expenditure (1). The rate of carbohydrate use is also low: carbohydrate needs are met predominantly by circulating blood glucose, with little or no muscle glycogen breakdown. The rate of appearance of fatty acids into the plasma peaks during low-intensity exercise (25% to 30% of VO2 max) and then declines as exercise intensity increases.<br /><br />In contrast, the rate of fat oxidation is highest during moderate activity such as easy jogging (65% of VO2 max). At such an intensity, plasma free fatty acids and intramuscular triglyceride contribute equally to the overall rate of fat oxidation. During high-intensity exercise (85% of VO2 max), the rate of total fat oxidation falls, mainly because the appearance of fatty acids into the plasma is suppressed. At the same time, lipolysis of intramuscular triglycerides does not rise substantially when exercise intensity increases from 65% to 85% of VO2 max. <b>This would not affect recreational athletes because most cannot sustain high-intensity exercise for more than 10 to 15 minutes without accumulating high (greater than 10 mM) concentrations of lactic acid in the working muscles and blood, which would cause discomfort and stop activity.</b><br /><br />When low-intensity exercise continues more than 90 minutes, the pattern of substrate metabolism changes little relative to the first 20 to 30 minutes of exercise. The same is true of moderate-intensity exercise (65% of VO2 max): the rate of total fat or carbohydrate oxidation changes little after 2 hours of jogging or cycling at this intensity compared with the first 30 minutes. However, this level of exercise induces a progressive increase in the mobilization of fatty acids from peripheral adipocytes into the plasma (1). Therefore, the contribution of intramuscular substrates (triglyceride and glycogen) to total energy expenditure probably decreases when the duration of moderate-intensity exercise increases beyond 90 minutes.<br /><br /><b>Endogenous carbohydrate reserves are limited, and muscle and liver glycogen depletion often coincides with fatigue during endurance events and many team sports. </b> The effects of endurance training on fat metabolism are well documented: it enhances total fatty acid oxidation by increasing intramuscular triglyceride storage and maximal fatty acid flux. These processes conserve endogenous carbohydrate stores and prolong intense exercise.

[[old] Steelhead]

NISMAT Exercise Physiology Corner: Energy Supply for Muscle<br /><br />ATP<br /><br />Adenosine triphosphate (ATP) is the source of energy for all muscle contractions. Energy is released when ATP is broken into ADP+Pi (adenosine diphosphate and phosphate group). Maintaining the availability of ATP for muscle contraction is the limiting factor, since ATP is not stored in large amounts in skeletal muscle. Viable sources of ATP come from both anaerobic (does not require O2) and aerobic (requires O2) means. The primary energy source for a given activity will primarily depend on the intensity of muscle contractions.<br /><br />Anaerobic Metabolism<br /><br />The two main anaerobic sources of ATP are from Phosphocreatine (PCr) and Anaerobic Glycolysis. Intramuscular PCr stores are used for rapid high intensity contractions but are depleted in less than 30 seconds and take several minutes to replenish. For example, PCr provides the majority of the energy for a 100 m sprint. Additionally, the ability to perform repeated bouts of near maximal effort is largely dependent on PCr stores. Augmenting PCr stores by Creatine Supplementation can increase the amount of work that can be performed in repeated bouts of high intensity exercise.<br /><br />Anaerobic Glycolysis refers to the breakdown of glucose (glycolysis) to pyruvate, which in the absence of O2, is converted to lactic acid. In muscle fibers, glucose is made available through the breakdown of muscle glycogen stores. Anaerobic glycolysis is not limited by the availability of glycogen; instead, the accumulation of lactic acid and other metabolites is the limiting factor. High intensity exercise with a duration of 1-3 minutes (e.g. 800 M race) will rely primarily on anaerobic glycolysis, resulting in a large accumulation of lactic acid.<br /><br />Aerobic Metabolism<br /><br />Aerobic glycolysis occurs when O2 is available to breakdown pyruvate, which yields ATP through chemical reactions that occur in the Krebs Cycle and the Electron Transport System. As in anaerobic metabolism, glucose may be obtained from stored glycogen. Glycogen stores are plentiful, and therefore glycogen depletion is only a concern for athletes who are continuously exercising for more than 90 minutes or intermittent exercise over substantially longer periods of time. For example, it is not uncommon for endurance athletes to become glycogen depleted. In marathon races this is referred to as "hitting the wall". In order to reduce the chances of depleting glycogen reserves during a contest, athletes often "carbo load" prior to the event. This involves manipulating the carbohydrate content of one's diet in order to maximize glycogen stores.<br /><br />The most abundant energy source available to the muscle fiber is fat. The breakdown of fat to yield ATP is referred to as lipolysis. While the supply of fatty acids is essentially unlimited, the rate at which lipolysis occurs is the limiting factor in obtaining ATP. Lipolysis is responsible for resting muscle activity, but its contribution to the overall muscle energy supply will decrease as contraction intensity increases. For example, glycogen depletion occurs when the rate of lipolysis cannot meet the energy demand of the exercise, and the reliance on glycolysis expends the available glycogen stores. Once glycogen depletion occurs, exercise intensity will be reduced dramatically. However, a small decrease in intensity (e.g. slowing the pace) earlier in the exercise bout would spare glycogen sufficiently to avoid depletion. In turn, the importance of facilitating lipolysis during endurance events cannot be overemphasized.<br /><br />Based on world record times, humans can maintain maximum sprinting speed for approximately 200 m. The average speeds for the 100 m and 200 m world records are similar (21.6 mph and 22.4 mph, respectively). However, with increasing distances, average speeds decline. The average speed for the marathon world record is 12.1 mph, which is 55% of the world record sprinting speed. This is remarkable since the marathon is more than 200 times the length of a 200 m race. Although natural selection plays a crucial role in elite sprinting and marathon performance, the energy systems also must be highly trained and exercise-specific to be successful. For example, the energy needed to maintain an average sprinting speed of 22 mph for 200 m or less and an average running speed of 12.1 mph for the marathon are acquired by two very different systems (the predominant energy systems required for running at different speeds are shown in the first figure). The primary energy source for sprinting distances up to 400 m is PCr. From 400 m to 1,500 m, anaerobic glycolysis is the primary energy source. For distances longer than 1,500 m, athletes rely primarily on aerobic metabolism.<br /><br />The rate of glycogen and fat utilization will vary according to the relative running speed. Although the rate of glycogen utilization is low while running a marathon, the duration of the event increases the possibility of depleting glycogen stores. In contrast, the rate of glycogen utilization is substantially higher during a 5,000 m run, but glycogen depletion is not a concern because of the short duration of the event.<br /><br />Maximum maintainable speed drops by approximately 7 mph as running distance increases from 200 m to 1500 m (about 1 mile). However, as the distance increases from 1 mile to 26 miles, maximum maintainable speed only drops an additional 3.5 mph. On average, a healthy, fit, non-elite, male athlete can be expected to sprint at an average speed of 16-18 mph for 100-200 m and approximately 6-8 mph for a marathon.<br /><br /><br />

[[old] Steelhead]

When you exercise you use energy. Your body can get that energy from glycogen, which is stored in your muscles, or from your fat stores. When you exercise at low intensity, the proportion of fat burnt, compared to glycogen, is greater than when you exercise at high intensity. However, the amount of fat burnt in absolute terms is greater if you exercise at high intensity. Therefore, you will consume the most fat if you exercise for as long as you can, as intensively as you can. You continue to consume calories after you finish exercising. The more intensively you have exercised, the greater the number of calories your body will consume in this recovery period.<br /><br />See: <a href='http://www.abc.net.au/dimensions/dimens ... 917465.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.abc.net.au/dimensions/dimens ... 465.htm</a> <br /><br />Okay, I've posted enough to give the general idea: exercise as intensely has you are able for as long as you can, and limit what you eat.<br /><br />Now for some more Christmas chocolates . . . .<br /><br /><b>High intensity cardiovascular/aerobic exercise is much more effective in burning off the excess body fat. </b>In fact, several studies have been done to prove this. In one study they compared one group who did moderate level aerobics for 45 minutes with another group who performed high intensity workouts for 15 minutes. They did before and after fitness testing including body fat analysis and found that the group who performed the high intensity aerobics lost nine times as much body fat!<br /><br />Want more proof? Compare the bodies of a walker, marathon runner, and sprinter. If you are not familiar with what a sprinters body looks like, it is very muscular and has little body fat while on the other hand the body of a walker will likely have the opposite, little muscle and more fat. The sprinter does little or no low intensity exercise and does primarily short hard bursts of work while the marathoner overtrains so much they burn off both the body fat and the muscle and that's why they tend to look almost sickly thin.<br /><br />So what should you do then if your main objective is to shed those excess pounds of body fat?<br /><br />Two things:<br /><br />1. Perform some form of high intensity cardio 2-4 times per week<br /><br />2. Stabilize blood sugar to minimize the storage of new fat<br /><br />Since we are not all world class athletes, but recreational athletes, the good news is that high intensity is all relative to us and our current fitness level. For example, fast walking up and down hills may be high intensity for you... (or using the erg at your present level) it all depends. So we shouldn't think that we have to start rowing faster than we are able, or running sprints, or something like that. Just slowly start to increase the intensity of our cardio workouts while also maybe decreasing the time because we can either work hard or we can work long.<br /><br />Okay, back for some more brandy filled chocolates . . ..<br /><br />Mike

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-Steelhead+Dec 18 2005, 11:25 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Steelhead @ Dec 18 2005, 11:25 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->At the same time, lipolysis of intramuscular triglycerides does not rise substantially when exercise intensity increases from 65% to 85% of VO2 max. <b>This would not affect recreational athletes because most cannot sustain high-intensity exercise for more than 10 to 15 minutes without accumulating high (greater than 10 mM) concentrations of lactic acid in the working muscles and blood, which would cause discomfort and stop activity.</b>[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Even world class athletes will accumulate high concentrations of acid in the muscles in less than 10 or 15 minutes at high intensity.<br /><br />Try sprinting one lap of the track some time and then see if you can continue the same pace another 10 or 15 minutes after that.<br /><br />Or sprint a 500 meters all out. Now, continue this same pace for another 10 or 15 minutes.<br /><br /><br />

[[old] Steelhead]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 18 2005, 07:02 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 18 2005, 07:02 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Steelhead+Dec 18 2005, 11:25 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Steelhead @ Dec 18 2005, 11:25 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->At the same time, lipolysis of intramuscular triglycerides does not rise substantially when exercise intensity increases from 65% to 85% of VO2 max. <b>This would not affect recreational athletes because most cannot sustain high-intensity exercise for more than 10 to 15 minutes without accumulating high (greater than 10 mM) concentrations of lactic acid in the working muscles and blood, which would cause discomfort and stop activity.</b>[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Even world class athletes will accumulate high concentrations of acid in the muscles in less than 10 or 15 minutes at high intensity.<br /><br />Try sprinting one lap of the track some time and then see if you can continue the same pace another 10 or 15 minutes after that.<br /><br />Or sprint a 500 meters all out. Now, continue this same pace for another 10 or 15 minutes. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />That's not the point. The point is that recreational athletes can't sustain high-intensity exercise for more than 10 to 15 minutes without accumulating high concentrations of lactic acid -- of course, world class athletes can accumulate high concentrations, but the article refers to recreational athletes such as most of us using an erg.<br /><br />Mike

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-Steelhead+Dec 18 2005, 11:21 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Steelhead @ Dec 18 2005, 11:21 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is a better explanation in my opinion: Fat Burning During Exercise: Can Ergogenics Change the Balance? [right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />There are so many mistakes in that article.<br /><br />It is not worth reading, in my opinion, and certainly not worth pasting into a message board.<br /><br />It is funny that you say it's a good explanation, then the guy has a question as the title.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-Steelhead+Dec 18 2005, 06:08 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Steelhead @ Dec 18 2005, 06:08 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's not the point. The point is that recreational athletes can't sustain high-intensity exercise for more than 10 to 15 minutes without accumulating high concentrations of lactic acid -- of course, world class athletes can accumulate high concentrations, but the article refers to recreational athletes such as most of us using an erg.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Actually it IS the point.<br /><br />Otherwise why did he put it in the article, to fill space?<br /><br />You must have thought it was important because you repasted it here.<br /><br />Since both you and he think it's the point, I must "point" out again that the conclusion is wrong.<br /><br />Both world class athletes and recreational ones can accumulate high concentrations of acid at much less than 10 or 15 minutes. <br /><br />The author of the article is clueless.<br /><br />As I said the article is not worth reading, and certainly not worth pasting onto a message board.<br /><br /><br /><br />

[[old] Steelhead]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 18 2005, 07:11 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 18 2005, 07:11 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Steelhead+Dec 18 2005, 11:21 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Steelhead @ Dec 18 2005, 11:21 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is a better explanation in my opinion: Fat Burning During Exercise: Can Ergogenics Change the Balance? [right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />There are so many mistakes in that article.<br /><br />It is not worth reading, in my opinion, and certainly not worth pasting into a message board.<br /><br />It is funny that you say it's a good explanation, then the guy has a question as the title. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />John,<br /><br />Thanks for sharing your opinion without providing any evidence as to why you disagree with the results of the various studies. As to the humor you find in the question in the article, the answer to the question is that caffeine if used correctly may help the body burn more fat during extended exercise, but other ergogenics may not. That information alone is worth pasting into a message board -- whether one agrees or disagrees with the empirical evidence relied upon. It is worth reading particularly for those of use interested in rowing for weight loss. Based upon your post, you are one skinny guy, and I can understand why you would not be interested in articles relating to weight loss.<br /><br />Mike

[[old] John Rupp]

The article is (supposedly) about fat metabolism, not weight loss.

[[old] Steelhead]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 18 2005, 08:24 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 18 2005, 08:24 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The article is (supposedly) about fat metabolism, not weight loss. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><a href='http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/conte ... 273/3/E623' target='_blank'>http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/conte ... /3/E623</a>

[[old] Steelhead]

Except for John, here's another article to read about losing fat and how to do it: <a href='http://www.womenof.com/Articles/sf_9_22_03.asp' target='_blank'>http://www.womenof.com/Articles/sf_9_22_03.asp</a> <br /><br />Excerpt (John do not read this):<br /><br /><b>The reality is that when beginning an exercise, the first fuel source used is glycogen (sugar in the cell that comes from carbohydrates that we eat). </b>Also, fat and, to a limited extent, protein provide energy, but not as efficiently or as quickly. Because glycogen is continually replenished, it will continue to be the fuel used until the cell cannot supply enough for the demand. Once this happens, the body becomes aware of it and begins to draw energy from free-fatty acids that are being metabolized from adipose (fat) tissue stores on the body. As a simple explanation, higher intakes of oxygen due to exercise and increased blood flow in the fat tissues begin to stimulate this process. <b>When the body reaches this point, more calories will be burned from fat than from carbohydrates.</b><br /><br />What are examples of exercises that will get one to the point of burning fat faster than carbohydrates? The first example is running. If you jog at an average pace of 9-11 minutes per mile, it will require about 40 minutes of jogging before your body begins to burn more fat than carbohydrates. However, if you run faster, say about 6-7 minutes per mile, you’ll reach this point in about 20 minutes or one-half the time of the slow pace. Sounds both logical and reasonable. <b>Why? Because after each respective time, the energy demands on the cell are such that glycogen stores become depleted to the point that they cannot provide the energy they initially provided at the beginning of the exercise. When this happens, energy supply is then drawn from metabolized fatty acids.</b> Sounds great doesn’t it? Yes, but there are some pros and cons.<br /><br />Suppose you like to run, but also want to retain as much lean muscle mass as you can so that you have a more symmetrical shape than the typical large legs and skinny upper torso of a marathon runner. If this is what you desire, you have to be careful about how long you exercise at the increased intensity. <b>For example, if you jog more than about 5-7 miles per day, glycogen cells become depleted, energy from fatty acids being metabolized cannot supply enough energy for demand and the body goes into a virtual starvation mode. But, it needs energy from someplace, where does this energy come from? The answer is from protein, but not from protein you ingest. The protein energy supply comes from cannibalization of muscle tissue, i.e., muscle mass is lost to the body’s energy demand. In other words, the muscles are eaten alive. </b>This is why marathon runners cannot keep muscle mass on their physique. Thus, we were able to burn lots of fat calories through long-distance running, but we lost muscle mass. If this is what you want then, this is a good method of exercising for you.<br /><br />For another example, which showcases method two, let’s look at speed athletes. By this I refer to track and field athletes who run short distances very quickly. Have you ever noticed how well muscled and lean they are? Why? Method two uses the principle of very quick glycogen depletion in the cell. The best way to visualize the cell is as a plastic cup with a hole in its bottom. The cup is filled with water that represents glycogen in your cells. Your goal is to run a 100 meter dash and reach the 100 meter mark before your cup is empty. Thus, your coach or trainer fills the cup with water and you’re off. Just as you cross the finish line, your cup drains the last bit of water from the hole. <b>This is the same thing that happens in repeated sprints. Each time you sprint, the glycogen in the cell, like water in the cup, is reduced to almost nothing then, after a short rest of 15-20 seconds, the glycogen stores within the cell are fully restored. This process can continue for about 20-40 minutes of total exercise, neglecting rest time. Once this point is past, the body then begins to burn more fat than carbohydrates or cell glycogen.</b> Why are speed athletes able to retain muscle mass in this manner? The answer is a simple one. Because the athlete stops running when cell glycogen stores can no longer be replenished, energy demands are supplied from metabolized fatty acids. Also, because they cease exercise activity at this point, cannibalization of the muscles do not occur as in distance running since all energy demands are now being met from stored fat supplies. Remember that after exercising you will continue to burn more fat than carbohydrates since most glycogen stores will be gone by the end of a moderate intensity workout. Also, due to workout intensity, the amount of fat burned after these type workouts are a little higher than for biking or distance running.<br /><br />For the latter method you would need to ask yourself if you would be individually up to the challenge to [row] sprints since these are a more professional level exercise and demand much more from the body. If you are elderly or have minor injuries, this may not be recommended. Another way is to blend both methods for your exercise program. A good example of this would be interval training. Let us use [an erg] as an example. Begin by [rowing] at an easy pace of 60-75% maximal heart rate for five minutes. Then, sprint or [row] as fast as you can until you reach about 90-95% maximal heart rate and maintain this pace for 60-90 seconds. Do this for a duration of 40-50 minutes. This will burn more fat calories than the steady pace, but because you slow down to a normal pace afterward, glycogen in the cells is replenished somewhat and allows you to continue to exercise over time without drawing on energy from your muscles., i.e., the muscles won’t be cannibalized. <br /><br /><br />Mike

[[old] jamman]

Your question can be answered by understanding the Respiratory Quotient.<br /><br />It is a ratio of Oxygen consumed / Carbon Dioxide produced.<br /><br />Fat, protein and carbohydrates can be used for energy.<br />They each have different numbers of carbons.<br /><br />By measuring oxygen consumption and carbon dioxide production, you can determine the primary source of energy a person is utilizing. This can be very important in managing the nutrition of critically ill patients. <br /><br />An RQ = 1 for carbohydrates<br />An RQ = .7 for fat<br /><br />This has little impact on weight loss overall. Weight loss is directly related to calorie intake and expenditure. Eat a well balanced diet to avoid malnutrition. In other words..eat less and exercise more.

[[old] hjs]

<!--QuoteBegin-sbasol+Dec 15 2005, 08:31 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(sbasol @ Dec 15 2005, 08:31 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hi,<br />I am  a university rower from Turkey. I have to lose some weight in order to be fitter.<br />I usually row for 45 minutes at an average heart rtae of 170-175 bpm.<br />I wonder if it is fat burning or not? They say we should row at a low intensty ın order to burn fat. But when I row at a low pace I burn less calorıes than I would rowıng at a faster pace.<br />If you help I would be very pleased. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Losing fat is more eating better than burning fat better. Al a lower you will use up more fat directly but as a total is just using more energie than consuming. So exercise at a higher level is better you use more energie. Another point is you restmetabolism. After a harder work out it will take more time to come back to you basiclevel. So AFTER a strong work out you will use more energie to.<br />For al exercise which is used to burn energie is best bye the way to split them up as much as you can. So better 10 x 1 week 20 min then times a week 3 hours or so.<br />And be patient, you didn,t gain the weight overnight so don,t expect to lose it overnight too. And don't exercise to hard, you won''t be able to keep that going for long. take time. <br />500 cal shortage will give you 500/7 = 130 grams vetloss. x 7 is less than 1 k a week.

[[old] stuartg]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 19 2005, 10:16 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 19 2005, 10:16 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Steelhead+Dec 18 2005, 06:08 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Steelhead @ Dec 18 2005, 06:08 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's not the point. The point is that recreational athletes can't sustain high-intensity exercise for more than 10 to 15 minutes without accumulating high concentrations of lactic acid -- of course, world class athletes can accumulate high concentrations, but the article refers to recreational athletes such as most of us using an erg.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br /><br />The author of the article is clueless.<br /><br />As I said the article is not worth reading, and certainly not worth pasting onto a message board. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I think you are the clueless one you fool. This guy has a PhD works at a well known Australian university in the area of exercise physiology and you think you know better. He has published in this area (see attachment) and still you think you know better. You are an ignorant fool. You refuse to listen to reason and logic and lack any insight in this area. What qualifications do you have you fool? Stick your head back and piss off from this section. You are not welcome you fool. <br />I have attached further reading for you to familiarise yourself with this topic you fool