The 2008 Team Moto Madmen and Women

C3H6O3 · Post by **C3H6O3** » January 28th, 2008, 3:36 pm

2whlrcr wrote:Supposedly the damper does not affect the resistance of the machine. The harder you push/pull, the more watts you will generate, regardless of the damper setting.

See, I'm not buying that. I just played around with my 5-stroke test and this is what I found:

(all pulls were with maximum effort)

Damper = 10 ----- Watts (on last pull) = 465W ----- S/M = 39
Damper = 8 ----- Watts (on last pull) = 464W ----- S/M = 40
Damper = 5 ----- Watts (on last pull) = 411W ----- S/M = 41
Damper = 3 ----- Watts (on last pull) = 372W ----- S/M = 41

Power = Force x Velocity

I also messed around with a goal time of <1:50/500m. The lower the damper setting, the higher the requisite strokes per minute with a ridiculous 40+ with the damper on 3.

I have to row now but if anyone has any ideas please let me know. Greg?

125shifter · Post by **125shifter** » January 28th, 2008, 3:45 pm

michelle wrote:That's awesome! I always laugh at the guy who's standing around talking about getting a titanium this or aluminum that in order to save a couple ounces; and meanwhile he's downing a donut and a coke!

Oh... I got plenty 'o bling - my bikes are my corvette, my boat, my winter house, etc!

We're in our final week now people... I just dropped almost 2 minutes off my HM... 1:39.56.4!

I'm gonna try to give 10k/day. My only beef is that I work in Wyoming on Tuesdays and the longer the drive, the less time I have when I get home!

michelle · Post by **michelle** » January 28th, 2008, 3:49 pm

C3H6O3 wrote:
2whlrcr wrote:Supposedly the damper does not affect the resistance of the machine. The harder you push/pull, the more watts you will generate, regardless of the damper setting.
See, I'm not buying that. I just played around with my 5-stroke test and this is what I found:

(all pulls were with maximum effort)

Damper = 10 ----- Watts (on last pull) = 465W ----- S/M = 39
Damper = 8 ----- Watts (on last pull) = 464W ----- S/M = 40
Damper = 5 ----- Watts (on last pull) = 411W ----- S/M = 41
Damper = 3 ----- Watts (on last pull) = 372W ----- S/M = 41

Power = Force x Velocity

I also messed around with a goal time of <1:50/500m. The lower the damper setting, the higher the requisite strokes per minute with a ridiculous 40+ with the damper on 3.

I have to row now but if anyone has any ideas please let me know. Greg?

The damper DOES affect the resistance -that's what it is.
If you up the damper you require more force to hammer your legs down. Assuming you drive at the same rate for each damper setting you are bound to get higher wattage on the higher damper setting.
The key is to figure out how much of a load you can handle each stroke. If you want to feel like you're doing weights, then crank it up. If you want to compare it more to running, then take it off.
I think where you are probably skewing your results is that stroke rate and rate of drive are two different things. You can row at 30spm by hammering the drive (increasing the watts by lowering the time of the work) or you can row at 30spm by slugging the drive and ripping up the slide. This method just tires you out and does nothing to increase your actually speed and wattage. Try experimenting with drive and slide speed. Hammer the drive, fllloat the slide. HAMMER, flllllooooat. It's like building in a rest every stroke.

michelle · Post by **michelle** » January 28th, 2008, 3:53 pm

Actually I just read your numbers again Steve and they aren't skewed at all. They make perfect sense for having to use less force on the lower dampers.
You should still play with drive/slide ratio though. It'll still make it all easier.

C3H6O3 · Post by **C3H6O3** » January 28th, 2008, 6:05 pm

Thanks for the reply, Michelle.

Here's my effort for the day:

2x4x500m (4000m total)

Then my addiction got the better of me and I did another 10,000m.

Total = 14,000m

C3H6O3 · Post by **C3H6O3** » January 28th, 2008, 6:12 pm

I did find some information on power output and flywheels but you need a degree in physics - particularly rotational mechanics - to understand it all. Oh well, I'll keep tinkering.

2whlrcr · Post by **2whlrcr** » January 28th, 2008, 7:15 pm

C3H6O3 wrote:
2whlrcr wrote:Steve wants a LP contest.
I'm afraid to ask.

Low Pull. The highest wattage or lowest 500M split time for a SINGLE pull. You can already be rowing, but this test is for the most powerful pull you can generate.

So you big strong muscular guys and ladies should excel at this. No cardiovascular conditioning needed.

C3H6O3 · Post by **C3H6O3** » January 28th, 2008, 7:25 pm

One and done. I like it.

C3H6O3 · Post by **C3H6O3** » January 28th, 2008, 7:28 pm

Looks like we've moved back into 12th place, folks. Let's see if we can stay there because, unfortunately, 11th looks a little out of reach.

ancho · Post by **ancho** » January 28th, 2008, 8:39 pm

Less biking and more rowing, folks!

Hey, guys (and gals):
Be careful with the Low Pull thingie.
I know some of you will pull great scores, but make sure you warm up well before.

Low pull doesn't say much about any other distance, it's ruinous for the style, but it's great fun!!

Regarding the Drag factor:
In some way, it's similiar to the gears on a bike: It's doesn't necessarily make you faster, and is a matter of personal preference.
That's why in official races, you are free to choose the DF of your preference.
You have to guide yourself by the DF indicated on the PM, as the damper settings may vary from machine to machine depending on maintenance and other factors.

I for myself row nearly everything at a DF of about 125 (Except for short distance time trials, where I go up to aout 160)

That doesn't mean it's the only truth. There are some very significant examples of high DF fans, including some otw rowers...

BTW, sun is shioning over here (in Spain).
It's looking like a long ride for next weekend for me!

Cheers!

GREGH · Post by **GREGH** » January 29th, 2008, 8:48 am

Here are some good links that you may find interesting. The VO2 max calculator has been proven to be pretty close to the more comprehensive test. The biggest factor is how well you row. Dr Fritz Hagerman developed the test. http://www.concept2.com/us/interactive/ ... vo2max.asp and here is one for Drag factor http://www.concept2.com/us/support/moni ... factor.asp . I will try and find you a better description of the drag factor. Keep in mind this was written by an engineer. So far "Ancho" and “Michelle” are right on the money. – Greg

michelle · Post by **michelle** » January 29th, 2008, 12:48 pm

C3H6O3 wrote:Thanks for the reply, Michelle.

Here's my effort for the day:

2x4x500m (4000m total)

Then my addiction got the better of me and I did another 10,000m.

Total = 14,000m

How longer are you resting between the pieces and the sets? And how hard are you laying them down (relative to your best 500)?

C3H6O3 · Post by **C3H6O3** » January 29th, 2008, 1:00 pm

michelle wrote:How long are you resting between the pieces and the sets? And how hard are you laying them down (relative to your best 500)?

I rest 2-minutes between 500m rows and 10-minutes between blocks. It looks like this:

1] 500m/Rest 2:00
2] 500m/Rest 2:00
3] 500m/Rest 2:00
4] 500m

10-minute recovery

Repeat one or two more times.

I try to keep all 500m under 1:50. My best time is 1:38.2. So, if my math is correct, all rows are about 90% of my best effort.

michelle · Post by **michelle** » January 29th, 2008, 4:23 pm

C3H6O3 wrote: I just played around with my 5-stroke test and this is what I found:

(all pulls were with maximum effort)

Damper = 10 ----- Watts (on last pull) = 465W ----- S/M = 39
Damper = 8 ----- Watts (on last pull) = 464W ----- S/M = 40
Damper = 5 ----- Watts (on last pull) = 411W ----- S/M = 41
Damper = 3 ----- Watts (on last pull) = 372W ----- S/M = 41

Power = Force x Velocity

Here's my drag-Watts stats:

damper 2 = drag factor 92 = 302 Watts -didn't look at my strokerate
damper 4 = df 116 = 315W
damper 6 = df 148 = 311W
damper 8 = df 188 = 292W
I always row with a df of 120 and my highest W is 362 on that setting. Todays numbers were probably a little low because I'd just finished a hard session (intervals Steve, don't worry

) But the pattern is still obvious. The df I'm using appears to be optimal for me. It's also the one that best reflects rowing a real boat. But like Greg said at some point, for moto training you might want to have it up a bit. At this point for me, though, I need some squats and whatever else first since I can't even handle 5 strokes at the higher settings

Ducatista · Post by **Ducatista** » January 29th, 2008, 7:13 pm

Greetings, mo' tards!

I've logged a sad fraction of what I'd hoped to add to the team. I may not have helped out much, but the team has DEFINITELY helped me. I've more than doubled my season total since Jan 1, sad but true, and I would never have done that without TMMW. Thanks, Greg!

I just started a 5-day course of Prednisone, so maybe I'll crank out a nice 'roid-fueled HM or something before January is history. It's my first juicing, so I don't know what to expect.