nosmo, thanks for the encouragement.
Yes, the drag factor is still 176 and I would like to lower it, so the duct tape sounds like it's worth a try. Since it's been heating up a bit here I've been considering a CBreeze to help keep myself cool. Would that lower the DF? Any idea by how much?
Daniel
Finally getting SPM down, at least a bit...
Paul's web site has a conversion factor for w and w/o the C-Breeze (www.ps-sport.net/DamperTable.htm) .
It looks like a DF of 176 will be reduced to 140 or 145 assuming it affects the B and D similarly. You may want to go lower yet. I'd bet you could use the C-Breeze and duct tape to go even lower.
Concept II does (or did) sell a "speed Disk" for the B to lower the drag. Since it was just a piece of plastic that went on the side (around the adjustable vents) it shouldn't be very expensive.
If it is hot where you are, the C-Breeze is the way to go. I'll get one if/when I get slides. It is just on hot enough here in the morning when I row to need one (besides I'm doing almost all my rowing on the water now. Been out this week 3x times with my step-son in a 2x. Lots of fun)
"Parish D" -- sounds like a Rap Star
It looks like a DF of 176 will be reduced to 140 or 145 assuming it affects the B and D similarly. You may want to go lower yet. I'd bet you could use the C-Breeze and duct tape to go even lower.
Concept II does (or did) sell a "speed Disk" for the B to lower the drag. Since it was just a piece of plastic that went on the side (around the adjustable vents) it shouldn't be very expensive.
If it is hot where you are, the C-Breeze is the way to go. I'll get one if/when I get slides. It is just on hot enough here in the morning when I row to need one (besides I'm doing almost all my rowing on the water now. Been out this week 3x times with my step-son in a 2x. Lots of fun)
"Parish D" -- sounds like a Rap Star
When I was using my old model B I found that the minimum DF was in the 150s. I am at 4000ft of altitude, so this figure is probably consistent with 176 at low elevations, i.e. at higher atmospheric pressure. I had a cardboard box that was 20" on each of two sides and about 4" thick. (A square fan had been packaged in it.) I had opened it on one end and it easily slipped over the cage of the erg, covering it all the way. This brought the DF down into the 50s. By moving it in and out I could change the DF by a range of about 100. I didn't ever really use it for workouts. It was mostly to satisfy my curiosity after I got a PM3 installed replacing the old PM(1). I had been using the model B for 10 or 12 years not even knowing that there was such a thing as DF and was used to the 150+ DF with the 15 cog gear. I have had a model D for a little over a year now and find that a DF of 120 +/- 5 feels fine for all my workouts.Nosmo wrote:Paul's web site has a conversion factor for w and w/o the C-Breeze (www.ps-sport.net/DamperTable.htm) .
It looks like a DF of 176 will be reduced to 140 or 145 assuming it affects the B and D similarly. You may want to go lower yet. I'd bet you could use the C-Breeze and duct tape to go even lower.
I really doubt that a C-breeze would have the same effect on both Bs and Ds. It should have a much greater effect on the very open cages of the Bs, whereas the D cages are already quite restricted.
Bob S.
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DragFactor
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You can still buy speed rings for the B. I just did (in the UK).
If you run a speed ring, CBreeze and have vents half open, you'll get a DF of about 130. Because the cog sizes are 13/15 on the B versus 14 on the C/D/E, it will feel a bit different on the pull. I set DF = 130 and use the 15 cog, which I expect must feel like pulling a 14 cog at DF = 14/15*130=121.
Frankly, just put drag where it feels right, no need to calculate cog effect like the above. I just find it nice to be able to compare to others when the talk of drag on their new machines. You'll never get it exactly the same as a newer model without changing the cog for a 14, since DF doesn't depand on the cog, meanign when you pull, the cog size has an effect on what you feel as resistance, but the flywheel always slows down independent of cog size, which affects the catch. In other words at DF 130, the pull on the 15 cog will feel like DF 120 on a newer model, but the flywheel speed at the catch will still feel like DF 130.
Sorry if that was more than you needed !
Steve
If you run a speed ring, CBreeze and have vents half open, you'll get a DF of about 130. Because the cog sizes are 13/15 on the B versus 14 on the C/D/E, it will feel a bit different on the pull. I set DF = 130 and use the 15 cog, which I expect must feel like pulling a 14 cog at DF = 14/15*130=121.
Frankly, just put drag where it feels right, no need to calculate cog effect like the above. I just find it nice to be able to compare to others when the talk of drag on their new machines. You'll never get it exactly the same as a newer model without changing the cog for a 14, since DF doesn't depand on the cog, meanign when you pull, the cog size has an effect on what you feel as resistance, but the flywheel always slows down independent of cog size, which affects the catch. In other words at DF 130, the pull on the 15 cog will feel like DF 120 on a newer model, but the flywheel speed at the catch will still feel like DF 130.
Sorry if that was more than you needed !
Steve
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johnlvs2run
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You need to use the cube of the cogwheels to find the difference in resistance.
13x13x13 = 2197 ~ 0.80
14x14x14 = 2744 ~ 1.00
15x15x15 = 3375 ~ 1.23
I did a lot of rowing at low rates a few years ago, 10spm, 12spm, 15 and 20spm, and I got much better at low rates - but they didn't help my times in the least.
Now I just do everything at the fastest rates possible (within reason) and find much more benefit doing this. In fact I think more strength is developed at regular speeds by keeping the ratings up higher. After all, the higher the rating the more you are using your muscles. However, the bottom line of this is results. If the aim is going faster, than you can go faster when the rating is higher. If the aim is how fast you can go at a low rate, then keep it low just for that, but it won't make you any faster at higher ones.
13x13x13 = 2197 ~ 0.80
14x14x14 = 2744 ~ 1.00
15x15x15 = 3375 ~ 1.23
I did a lot of rowing at low rates a few years ago, 10spm, 12spm, 15 and 20spm, and I got much better at low rates - but they didn't help my times in the least.
Now I just do everything at the fastest rates possible (within reason) and find much more benefit doing this. In fact I think more strength is developed at regular speeds by keeping the ratings up higher. After all, the higher the rating the more you are using your muscles. However, the bottom line of this is results. If the aim is going faster, than you can go faster when the rating is higher. If the aim is how fast you can go at a low rate, then keep it low just for that, but it won't make you any faster at higher ones.
bikeerg 75 5'8" 155# - 18.5 - 51.9 - 568 - 1:52.7 - 8:03.8 - 20:13.1 - 14620 - 40:58.7 - 28855 - 1:23:48.0
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2
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DragFactor
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As it turns out Concept2 is still offering the model B speed ring so I ordered one and it should be here by the time I get back from a camping trip next week. I can't wait to try out rowing at a lower DF. I'm still thinking of the C-Breeze too as I did my 60 mins yesterday while the temperatures was in the mid-90s and it nearly did me in. How I was longing for a bit of air movement...
Daniel
Daniel
Why are you thinking about it?? Erging with temps in the mid-90s without a strong fan or the C-Breeze is crazy! After you use it you will wonder what took you so long.parishd wrote:As it turns out Concept2 is still offering the model B speed ring so I ordered one and it should be here by the time I get back from a camping trip next week. I can't wait to try out rowing at a lower DF. I'm still thinking of the C-Breeze too as I did my 60 mins yesterday while the temperatures was in the mid-90s and it nearly did me in. How I was longing for a bit of air movement...
Daniel
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johnlvs2run
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I got a Lasko box fan from Walmart for $16, three 99.99% 20x20" filters from Home Depot for $8, and duct taped one of the filters to the back of the fan.
This makes a $450 hepa filter for 25 bucks.
The fan now filters out dust, pollen, and many other particles from the air. There's no reason to have that stuff blowing in your lungs while you're rowing, plus the circulation helps to keep me cool when it's hot.
I have a picture of it somewhere, will see about posting it if anyone is interested.
This makes a $450 hepa filter for 25 bucks.
The fan now filters out dust, pollen, and many other particles from the air. There's no reason to have that stuff blowing in your lungs while you're rowing, plus the circulation helps to keep me cool when it's hot.
I have a picture of it somewhere, will see about posting it if anyone is interested.
bikeerg 75 5'8" 155# - 18.5 - 51.9 - 568 - 1:52.7 - 8:03.8 - 20:13.1 - 14620 - 40:58.7 - 28855 - 1:23:48.0
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2
Well I'm back although I missed a couple of weeks more than expected after twisting my back and knee while backpacking...
The model B speedring came and it's great. I can now adjust the DF from 204 down to 109; currently have it set to 150 and it's quite a bit different than rowing at 176 as I have done in the past. My kids were also excited about it after rowing a couple of times at this new DF; they say they have a much easier time holding their pace now.
Still thinking about the C-Breeze, but I'll wait a couple of weeks to make sure my back/knee are fully on the mend.
Daniel
The model B speedring came and it's great. I can now adjust the DF from 204 down to 109; currently have it set to 150 and it's quite a bit different than rowing at 176 as I have done in the past. My kids were also excited about it after rowing a couple of times at this new DF; they say they have a much easier time holding their pace now.
Still thinking about the C-Breeze, but I'll wait a couple of weeks to make sure my back/knee are fully on the mend.
Daniel