No slide.....huh?

xeno · Post by **xeno** » February 15th, 2007, 11:12 am

Hello Chgoss

I look forward to meeting you. Tell me ahead of time when that would be so I can make sure that I am there.

All the best,

XENO

xeno · Post by **xeno** » February 15th, 2007, 11:17 am

Hello John Rupp

Thank you for the fotos of the Concept2 with moving footboard.

There is more than one way to make rowing less static.

Xeno

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » February 15th, 2007, 1:32 pm

lt_gustavsen wrote:I’m interested in slide my self and I found this page very interesting.
http://www.mosmanrowing.com/news/2007/0 ... rgometers/

Regards
Lars

Lt Gustaven,

Thank you for the links. It is interesting to see the first part of Dick Dreissigacker's comments about the fixed vs dynamic erg. I am surprised by that part of his his comments and want to say I agree with them.

"In general I feel that rowing athletes choose to train on ergs with the damper setting (drag factor) set too high, creating a situation where they can generate high forces at slower speed of movement than in a boat. This is not generally a good idea ... Interestingly, there is a strong tendency to row the erg in dynamic mode at a higher rating, thereby effectively reducing the force"

Thus Dick Dreissigacker is suggesting it is better to row with low damper and high rating. I am surprised by this as was under the impression that he does the opposite. The rest of his remarks seem to justify for him that these changes make up all the difference between static and dynamic ergs, though he admists many rowers find the slides to be faster - except in the cases where they keep banging the ends and don't learn how to use them.

The author of the blog, JW Burk, then comments as follows:

"Erg selection aside, however, the most important thing I took away from Dick Dreissigacker's comments is that we're all likely rowing with too much load - on erg or in boat."

I agree with all of the above, except that those factors would make all the difference between static and dynamic ergs. My personal experience shows otherwise. I use the same low damper on both the erg and slides, and same meters per stroke, so the rating is automatically adjusted by the speed. Even doing so, I continue to find the slides to be significantly faster than the erg, and this difference is not accountable solely by adjustments to the damper and rating as was suggested above.

To the contrary, I find the differences to be from the difference in the resistance and load of weight that is moved with each stroke. Thus, regardless of the drag factor and rating, the dynamic erg is always going to be faster than the static one, because the weight that is moved with each stroke is much less.

Sadly, if Dick Dreissigacker is convinced otherwise, it looks that C2 is not going to pursue the dynamism of their ergs, and anyone wishing to have a dynamic would need to either convert one on their own, or look elsewhere.

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » February 15th, 2007, 1:42 pm

Hi Xeno,

You're quite welcome.

It is interesting that rowbikes use the same designs, i.e. either static or dynamic. I like the dynamic much better, as used by Warren Berger and as he likewise used in his conversion of the model B mentioned previously.

In the static design, the person moves back and forth on top of the bicycle, whereas with Berger's design, the person sits in the same place, while the arms and legs move to generate the movement of the bicycle.

Kinley · Post by **Kinley** » February 15th, 2007, 3:18 pm

John Rupp wrote: I use the same low damper on both the erg and slides, and same meters per stroke, so the rating is automatically adjusted by the speed. Even doing so, I continue to find the slides to be significantly faster than the erg, and this difference is not accountable solely by adjustments to the damper and rating as was suggested above.

An erg on slides rewards strong leg drive, while an erg on the floor rewards upper body heave & yank of the arms. Are you sure that the power difference you perceive in rate controlled pieces is not due to better technique and the use of stronger muscle groups on slides?

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » February 15th, 2007, 5:06 pm

Hi Kinley,

You make good points that are certainly valid and applicable.

The power and pace advantages I've observed on the slides have been from test pieces that I've done on both the slides and erg and repeated.

I've not done any low rate controlled pieces on the slides and rarely do any low rate controlled pieces at all anyway. Rather, as a test between the erg and slides, I kept the meters per stroke the same on each of them. Thus as the pace gets faster and the power increases, the meters per stroke stay the same, which helps to eliminate extraneous variables when doing the tests.

Were the rates to be kept the same, and the meters per stroke the same, as some have done, then of course the time and pace would be the same and there would be no differences as this is simple mathematics, but that is not a valid experiment.

Also I want to say that the greatest difference I have found to be over distance. My times for 50 meter sprints were almost identical. The slides were 1.5 to 2 seconds faster on pace for 1:00 repeats, and I did 2x a 2k on slides which were each 10 seconds faster than my time that I was able to do on the erg. This increasing advantage over distance makes sense as it is easier to keep a lighter weight going over distance than a heavier one, i.e. the lighter weight of the erg vs the heavier weight of the rower.

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » February 15th, 2007, 7:13 pm

Here is Warren Berger on his dynamic row bike:

http://www.rowvelo.com/video/both.mov
http://www.rowvelo.com/video/both_hill.mov

Compare those with the static "rowbike" (trademark name):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=w_fzfo7yyTA

Rocky · Post by **Rocky** » February 17th, 2007, 10:15 pm

At the risk of entering a discussion where angels fear to tread...

I wanted to add a different perspective to this discussion about slides. I'm much more of an intermediate rower than John... I'm trying to get back into competitive rowing after four years of intermittant workouts, so I'm not in great shape. I see erging as a necessary training practice, because I don't have 2 hours a day to get down to the river and back these days. I don't love erging, but it's better than getting really fat.

I bought the slides because I was looking for something closer to on-the-water. What a rush! Using the slides makes erging feel much more like being on the water. I can imagine now how it feels to have the boat running out under me. Wow! What an improvement. Kudos C2, what an ingenious invention.

I was looking for John's reported improvement in splits, but no dice. But, I'm doing all my rowing under 24 spm, which seems to be a lot lower rating than his.

In fact, my perceived effort for maintaining a given rating/split combination is higher for me on the slides than off. I think this is probably because I had adapted my stroke to the higher load at the beginning of the stroke on the stationary erg. I hope this will change as I get used to the slides.

Notably, my heart rate at a given split is the same whether on or off the slides. On slides, I'm rowing at a slightly higher rating to get the same split and heart rate.

Here is an unexpected benefit I found on the slides: A LOWER PUKE FACTOR! All of my rowing career (even in college), erging has given me a yucky, nauseous feeling. OTW rowing never gave the same problem (except when I ate too many donuts before my first novice race, and the time when we raced in 100 degree heat). I've almost always puked after an erg test, and hard workouts have not been too much easier on the stomach. On the slides my stomach feels much better for the moderate level steady state and interval pieces I have been doing. However, I haven't done a max effor test yet though.

So... to summarize, in my experience, the slides are a very nice improvement to the erg, particularly if you are a crazy OTW rower, or if hard erg workouts make you puke.

As much as I wanted to find an improvement in my splits, I couldn't find them (at low ratings).

I hope this comment helps those intermediate rowers trying to decide whether to spring for the slides!
-C

xeno · Post by **xeno** » February 17th, 2007, 10:59 pm

Hello Rocky
I totally understand about the puke factor. It is impossible to watch TV while rowing a stationary rowing machine.
In my opinion you can't compare stationary rowing to rowing with slides or using the Rowperfect.
Some rowers on this message board put emphaisis on comparing erg scores. It makes sense to have a NO SLIDE rule for competition, because it is a lot simpler to organize a competition with less equipment and without worrying whether the floor is truely flat.
I am in the business of helping people enjoy fitness through indoor rowing. Whether it is a ROWPERFECT or Concept2 on C2 Slides, the vote is clear, no one I know personally will prefer to row a stationary rowing machine.
The slide concept was invented by a German sport institute. Concept2
made it available to the public.
All the best,
XENO

seat5 · Post by **seat5** » February 23rd, 2007, 11:11 pm

I'm not a coach or anything, but I have used slides for about a year and a half now, to help avoid back injury. Since there's controversy about slide times I don't rank or race on slides, though it's "legal". (Except for actual 2K venue races, of course, where you have to row on a standard erg.) In any case, this year I'm racing in Boston and figured I'd better get acclimated to rowing on the standard machine, so any workouts at race pace or faster I've done on standard erg, and all the other slower stuff on slides. The last few weeks I've stayed off the slides altogether just to get totally used to it. I do feel more sore than I was a month ago and look forward to doing more on slides when the even is over. If I'm doing a standard erg workout, I do the warm up on standard erg, too, because at least at my skill level, it feels very odd to warm up one way and then do a workout the other way.

As for any advantage, I don't really find any, as far as times go. I've bettered almost all of my times this year, on standard erg, that I rowed on slides last year. It is easier to rate higher on the slides but who wants to rate 30 over a 10K or HM? I don't, anyway.

If you set your machine up right, it's a fairly simple matter to put it in and out of the slides with hardly any bother. I used to resist doing it because it hurt my back to mess around moving the erg and moving the slides, and then PaulS posted a simple way to do it without hardly having to bend over. First lift the back leg of the erg and push the slide carriage behind the back leg and place the back leg on the floor. Go round to the front of the erg and push the two slides together (take out any spacing stick you are using between them first, of rourse, if you are using one.) Lift the front leg off the slide carriage and pull it forward to put it down on the floor in front of the front slide carriage.

I highly reccomend them!

Byron Drachman · Post by **Byron Drachman** » February 24th, 2007, 9:02 am

I also have to be careful with my back. I lent my slides to a friend who has very serious back problems including herniated disks but would like to continue using his C2. He found out that the slides are a big help and he has ordered slides. In the meantime I am without slides and am anxious to get mine back. I find that using slides and watching Xeno's training DVD's are great for keeping the indoor training going while I'm waiting for the river to unfreeze. Xeno's enthusiam and encouragement on the DVD's put me in a good mood.

I find that if I keep my back very straight and well-supported and the small of my back as forward as I comfortably can during the entire stroke, and if I'm using slides with the C2, then I don't get lower back aches.

Byron

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » February 24th, 2007, 1:05 pm

Rocky wrote:I was looking for John's reported improvement in splits, but no dice. But, I'm doing all my rowing under 24 spm, which seems to be a lot lower rating than his.

I have posted them all on the forum, though on the older one, so you should still be able to find them all there.

As mentioned before, of course if the rating, the recovery, the watts and the pace are all restricted on each stroke, then the slide times will not be any different to the regular erg.

Update, the topic is below. The 1st link should have all of the experiments listed except I did 2x 2k on the slides that were each considerably faster than a 1x 2x on the erg (which was harder) and those might not be posted.

1st impressions of the slides
http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?p= ... ides#56439

view from garage
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/jo ... view01.jpg

picture of slides on wall
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/jo ... lides1.jpg

Two days ago I replaced the hooks with 5/16 x 4 1/2 inch lag screws, each with a fender washer, and 2 1/2 inches of irrigation tubing for use as spacers and protection of the slides. These have turned out to work *very* well and look great! Hopefully I will get around to posting a picture of them.

chgoss · Post by **chgoss** » February 26th, 2007, 11:39 pm

John,
would you mind measuring the length of floor space the slides take up? From leading edge of front, to trailing edge of rear, when the erg is mounted?

want to see if I have enough room...

thanks!
-chad

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » February 26th, 2007, 11:58 pm

Hi Chad,

The slides are each 56 inches, plus 17-18 inches in between.

This is 130 inches or 10 feet 10 inches.

You could probably put the slides closer than this, which would stretch the bungees a bit but a few inches likely wouldn't make too much of a difference.

chgoss · Post by **chgoss** » February 27th, 2007, 10:29 am

thanks!

Concept2 Forum

No slide.....huh?

Hi Rocky and general comments, XENO