Drag setting vs. performance and pain

tdebert · Post by **tdebert** » December 24th, 2006, 10:17 am

I’ve been using the Concept II for a little over a year. For the first 9 months, I was using the highest damper setting (most resistance). However, I recently read on the Concept II site that most elite rowers use a setting of 3 to 5 for competitions. In addition to my strength training goals, I have goals for both the 2000m (6:59) and the 500m (1:29.9), but have primarily focused on the 500m goal recently.

I find that I can achieve a faster time, especially for shorter distances, using the highest damper setting. My current PR is 1:35.1 and I have only recently made that my focus, so I think 1:29.9 is achievable within the year. However, I think I’m seeing a correlation between using the high damper setting and minor nagging lower back pain. Initially, I attributed it to heavy deadlifting and squatting, but I don’t seem to have the pain when using a lower setting of 5 or less on the rower. The only problem with putting the setting down to 5 or less is that I can’t seem to get my rowing times down with a setting that low.

I was wondering if anyone has experienced similar issues. Also, does anyone know of anything I could do to develop the speed needed to improve my times at lower damper settings. It seems like I might tend to be "strong and slow" rather than "fast and explosive".

I'm a 37 year old man, and 5’10” 186lbs. Even if I can reach my rowing goals, I am obviously nowhere near world class level times, so my goal setting is purely for personal fulfillment and fitness. That being said, I’d really like to get my times down as much as possible without injury.

Any words of wisdom you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Current PRs: 500m - 1:35.1, 2000m - 7:23.3

marathonoflife · Post by **marathonoflife** » December 24th, 2006, 11:26 am

at Rowing Canada I was told to keep the drag factor at 120 or less,
putting the damper on around 3 3/4 to 4 range on the machines i use.
this is presented as important to avert in juries.

for me,
what am working on (to increase speed)
is lowering the strokes per min.
as low as I can
while pulling as many watts of power as I can.

it seems that after pulling a 23 stroke per min. 2000m
session, i look at the distance,
try to pull a higher wattage for power,
keep my stroke rate at 23, then see how much farther i went.

after a few sessions of that type of pyramid,
i test out my progress by
letting myself pull at a faster stroke rate,
(typically around 28-33 range for me),
and i work at keeping the power wattage on each stroke
at high as the best session from the previous cycle mentioned.

when it works well,
i end up with a much faster 2000m
then before i started working on getting more power out of each stroke,
by practicing it at the lower stroke rates
and transferring that power level to the higher stroke rates.

i don't know if that makes sense to others,
but its the way i been trying to accomplish the same goal as you.

i will know in about 5 weeks (Feb. 4th) wether that was helpful
approach for me or not.

-minna

tdebert · Post by **tdebert** » December 24th, 2006, 11:48 am

Here's a little more information. I just checked the drag factor on my Model D and got the following results.

Setting = 10, drag = 202 - This is where I get the best results, but seem to be tweaking my lower back a little.
Setting = 5, drag = 132
Setting = 4, drag = 118
Setting = 3, drag = 104

I never have an back issues when rowing with a drag factor of 132 or lower, but I am also not able to achieve my fastest times at those lower settings.

TomR · Post by **TomR** » December 24th, 2006, 12:21 pm

Many people seem to use a drag of between 115-130 for training and racing, but there are outliers.

Being able to produce the desired pace at a lower drag probably will require you to work on your technique. Drive w/ the legs, finish w/ the arms. Here's a video of good technique:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 3085140658

A lot of people increase the drag when doing a fast 500 piece and they increase rate to 40 strokes (or so) a minute. And lots of people report they tweaked their back doing a fast 500.

Sounds like you would do well to work on your technique and forget personal bests for a bit.

jbell · Post by **jbell** » December 24th, 2006, 11:17 pm

This winter I have been training with a drag factor of 120 on all pieces (long, short, intervals) and for race pieces I do them at ~115. Doing any piece longer than ~2-4min at a 200+ drag will severely hurt your back. What is your stroke rate with your damper on 10? Although you get a lower split, if you lower the damper to say 130 (~5-6) and bring the stroke rate up 2 or 3 spm, you should be able to get the same score.

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » December 25th, 2006, 1:30 am

Nice video. Thanks for posting it.

Peter's style looks similar to Rich Cureton's doesn't it?

tomhz · Post by **tomhz** » December 25th, 2006, 6:02 am

tdebert wrote: I never have an back issues when rowing with a drag factor of 132 or lower, but I am also not able to achieve my fastest times at those lower settings.

Tdebert,

Just don't use drag factor 200 anymore. You will hurt your back in the end and your scores will plateau soon. Keep the drag factor at 132. Maybe a little higher to start with and maybe even lower in the end.
Don't focus on 500m score. That is the last distance that will profit from lower drag settings. Focus on 2K or longer. There is more room for improvement there for you. After you improve on these your 500m scores will follow.

Tom

coggs · Post by **coggs** » December 25th, 2006, 11:45 pm

My wife is a chiropractor - so keep rowing with a DF of 200+ and tell all your friends to as well<g>.

As others have suggested I'd work at increasing your stoke rate with good tecnhique at a lower drag factor to lower your times, especially at the short distances you are focusing on. For sub 2000M competition pieces you will see a lot of ergers (is that a word?) do their first 2 or 3 pulls at a quick 5/8 to 3/4 short slide just to get the flywheel turning. At a high DF this is really hard to accomplish (and even harder on your back).

My experience is it's damned rare to see somebody at a competiton with a DF above 145 and most are in the low 120's.

As for lowering your 500M time by 5+ seconds. Time wise that's only about a 7% decrease but the power output (watts) required will be significantly more. Somebody could give you the exact # but I'd suspect it's around 20% which is a lot to ask - even in a year. Don't want to discourage you but I've been working for the better part of a year to lower my 2000M time by 5 seconds.

Best of luck and keep us posted.

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » December 26th, 2006, 1:35 am

I've used damper 10 and a drag factor of 200+ quite a bit and it's never bothered me, though my preference is for a low setting around 80.

So I don't know why it would bother anyone's back any more.

To the contrary the drive is much faster at the lower drag factors, so injuries from bad form or whatever are more likely to occur at low drag factors than high ones.

My preference for low drag factors is simply that they feel better to me, and I've done similar times either way.

aussiequadrider · Post by **aussiequadrider** » December 26th, 2006, 8:34 am

Thanks for the video of the co-founder of concept2 but what's with his bent elbows. I thought your arms should be straight at the catch and just start to bend as the legs straighten, his arms seem to be bent at the catch and then starts pulling his hands to his chest well before his legs are straightened.

Giddyup, Geoff.

PaulS · Post by **PaulS** » December 26th, 2006, 10:52 am

John Rupp wrote: Peter's style looks similar to Rich Cureton's doesn't it?

No.

hjs · Post by **hjs** » December 26th, 2006, 10:58 am

PaulS wrote:
John Rupp wrote: Peter's style looks similar to Rich Cureton's doesn't it?
No.

hahahaha,

indeed absolutely NOT!

stop it john.

PaulS · Post by **PaulS** » December 26th, 2006, 11:05 am

hjs wrote:
PaulS wrote:
John Rupp wrote: Peter's style looks similar to Rich Cureton's doesn't it?
No.

hahahaha,

indeed absolutely NOT!

stop it john.

Now Henry, I was simply answering a question, don't go starting something with John.

Ducatista · Post by **Ducatista** » December 26th, 2006, 11:18 am

The only time I've experienced lower back pain on the erg was when I started up again after a several-year absence and hopped on at my customary damper setting of 6-7 (don't know DF — I had a PM1 back then, and if there was a way to get a DF reading from that monitor, I never knew it). I started off slow & easy, and was quite careful about form, and still I had back pain. I asked around on the old forum and someone suggested I lower the damper setting. Dropped down to 3, and the difference was marked.

I have a PM2 now, so I know I typically row at DF 115. No back problems, even when I jump into an HC after many months of inactivity, as I did this year.

Dickie · Post by **Dickie** » December 26th, 2006, 3:25 pm

I started out big and strong, a weightlifter all my life and a drag of 200+ seemed natural to me. I too read on the forum about lowering my drag and when I did, my times went to hell. At some point I just decided that lower drag must be better, everyone said it was.

It took about 2 million meters and now all my fastest times (except 500m) are at a drag of 130 or less, my 500 is between 160 and 170. As was stated earlier in this thread, work on your technique, practice exploding off the catch, I have found that low stroke rate work helps me. In time you won't know why you working at those ridiculous damper settings.

Fred Dickie