report from Amsterdam

[PaulS]

Some of us use low drags, some of us use high drags. Don´t you think it depends on your muscle structure and character, what is the ideal drag for each rower Paul?

Well, if I had to characterize it, I would agree that we could each find a DF that worked the best for us, but since we are adaptable, it would not be quite so critical as other things.

For example:
What is your goal with the Erg? Moving Boats or Producing fast Ergometer times.

Our physiologies with vary somewhat, though once again, we are adaptable. We are also a single species (well, most of us) so will conform to a rather narrow band of performance parameters with regard to muscle contraction speed, desireable recovery ratio, energy production chemistry, etc... i.e. If you have been around a lot of Erg tests, it becomes relatively easy to spot the "fly and die" folks, and it doesn't have anything to do with how fast or slow the splits are as it is relative to their individual capacities. You or I might think of a 2:00 pace as a "walk in the park" but it could be someone elses "all out" effort.

We may also train a certain way, to make capitalizing on how the PM calculates pace work in our favor with modifications to technique that are Erg Specific. Like your "ultra high DF" training, which slows down the contraction speed by force, another might use Low DF training to increase quickness. It's like swinging a weighted baseball bat to make the real one feel lighter. The effect is temporary but real.

I've had some success with manipulating the DF so that similar handle speeds can be found for longer training sessions as what one would be doing at racing DF and Pace. This helps to create the same contraction speed of the muscles, but under less stress so that the sequencing can be ingrained at teh speed it needs to be. Pulling hard can come later, and is necessarily limitted to relatively short bouts of exercise that are not quite as good for the ingraining of habits. This sort of DF manipulation also allows the ratio to be ingrained, though that can be done by fixing the distance per stroke (DPS) at some value and leaving the DF stable. (For a given drive length [cm], if a constant DPS is maintained, the Ratio of the stroke is a constant.) That final bit is the underlying principle of the S10PS foundational Training that anyone who I coach adheres to. I'll let the results speak to the effectiveness of that training. Dennis and Roy are no secret.

What I look for overall, is not something that works for a very narrow segment of the rowing community (do it or die trying), but things that get desireable results across a large spectrum of individuals (slow steady progress to peak performance within individual capacity).

[german answer]

Some of us use low drags, some of us use high drags. Don´t you think it depends on your muscle structure and character, what is the ideal drag for each rower Paul?

Well, if I had to characterize it, I would agree that we could each find a DF that worked the best for us, but since we are adaptable, it would not be quite so critical as other things.

For example:
What is your goal with the Erg? Moving Boats or Producing fast Ergometer times.

Our physiologies with vary somewhat, though once again, we are adaptable. We are also a single species (well, most of us) so will conform to a rather narrow band of performance parameters with regard to muscle contraction speed, desireable recovery ratio, energy production chemistry, etc... i.e. If you have been around a lot of Erg tests, it becomes relatively easy to spot the "fly and die" folks, and it doesn't have anything to do with how fast or slow the splits are as it is relative to their individual capacities. You or I might think of a 2:00 pace as a "walk in the park" but it could be someone elses "all out" effort.

We may also train a certain way, to make capitalizing on how the PM calculates pace work in our favor with modifications to technique that are Erg Specific. Like your "ultra high DF" training, which slows down the contraction speed by force, another might use Low DF training to increase quickness. It's like swinging a weighted baseball bat to make the real one feel lighter. The effect is temporary but real.

I've had some success with manipulating the DF so that similar handle speeds can be found for longer training sessions as what one would be doing at racing DF and Pace. This helps to create the same contraction speed of the muscles, but under less stress so that the sequencing can be ingrained at teh speed it needs to be. Pulling hard can come later, and is necessarily limitted to relatively short bouts of exercise that are not quite as good for the ingraining of habits. This sort of DF manipulation also allows the ratio to be ingrained, though that can be done by fixing the distance per stroke (DPS) at some value and leaving the DF stable. (For a given drive length [cm], if a constant DPS is maintained, the Ratio of the stroke is a constant.) That final bit is the underlying principle of the S10PS foundational Training that anyone who I coach adheres to. I'll let the results speak to the effectiveness of that training. Dennis and Roy are no secret.

What I look for overall, is not something that works for a very narrow segment of the rowing community (do it or die trying), but things that get desireable results across a large spectrum of individuals (slow steady progress to peak performance within individual capacity).

All right Paul, I agree. But the point I want to figure out is that working with plans like your athletes do would kill me. These high intensity work outs my be all right for a few rowers- for others is it not the right way. There is not always one truth: e.g. my partner Peter (9 th 30-39 EIRC), needs another specific plan to build up race pace than me. He needs a lot of these intensive workouts, the right way for me are these high resistance work outs. Even in race preparation for the on water season, we make different workouts in the single. In the double we are able to do a sub 6:30 over 2000m. Not too bad for us old guys.

I hate generalism, because I made bad experience with this "the only way to success" plans.

[johnlvs2run]

I take the perforate metal cover off the flywheel! The first days are really hard but you get used to it. You may laugh out or not df 210 feels easy after a few weeks with df 300.

But you can not produce low splits, because the air resistance is immense. You have to control your movements during the stroke- upright position at the catch and nearly upright position at the finish. No angle over 90 degrees in your knees. This feels better than any workout with weights and muscular ache is guarenteed.

Thanks much for your comments. I used damper 10 a few years ago, alternating with low drag facters on faster days and found this quite helpful. Recently I have been using them periodically again.

The great thing about using a high drag factor for me is being able to still use my same rhythm and timing as normally, yet you get this greater strength benefit as you say. And the high drag is not so hard on wrists and ligaments, because the movement is slower. I also find this much easier on the nerves, a rest and strengthening from the sessions that have more intensity and are faster.

[PaulS]

All right Paul, I agree. But the point I want to figure out is that working with plans like your athletes do would kill me. These high intensity work outs my be all right for a few rowers- for others is it not the right way. There is not always one truth: e.g. my partner Peter (9 th 30-39 EIRC), needs another specific plan to build up race pace than me. He needs a lot of these intensive workouts, the right way for me are these high resistance work outs. Even in race preparation for the on water season, we make different workouts in the single. In the double we are able to do a sub 6:30 over 2000m. Not too bad for us old guys.

I hate generalism, because I made bad experience with this "the only way to success" plans.

"High intensity"? I would have termed your ultra-drag workouts as far more intense than what I prescribe. We also keep things to 5 days a week and less than an hour a day for the most part (much less, more like 30-40 minutes).

You should be winning everything in your 2x, at least in the Masters world of 1k racing. That is moving very well!

Unless you are in a 1x, there is going to be some generalism, unless you have worked out the details of asynchronous sculling.

As for generalized training plans, even if similar pieces are scheduled, the targets will vary, along with the stroke rate, so they tend to work on what the athlete needs as they find their own way to meet the targets.

I've got no doubts that your training works for you, though I'd have to see your whole schedule if I were to evaluate it on the basis that there might be areas where it could improve. There may not be, though that is pretty rare. I can see plenty of areas to make additions to my own plans, but then the constraints of time come into play, so I go for the areas where the most benefit can be gained in the least amount of time. After all, there aren't many folks that get to spend their days just training for rowing.

[becz]

That final bit is the underlying principle of the S10PS foundational Training that anyone who I coach adheres to. I'll let the results speak to the effectiveness of that training. Dennis and Roy are no secret.

Certainly Roy and Dennis are to be congratulated on their performance, no doubt about that. Excellent racing. The following isn't meant in any way to take from their achievements. I have a couple of comments regarding the winning times:

First, it's apparent from the Worldrowing article that Roy is a natural. Some people just need a point in the right direction.
Second, looking at Dennis' time, he's pulled a 6:39.5, 6:43.8 and 6:41.8 at the last 3 CRASH-B races. His winning time at EIRC was 6:49.5. Winning is obviously fantastic, but I'm not sure about the result being a testament to the process.

[dennish]

No mystery here. I was full time rower/erger at the Wirc the last three years. Last year I moved over to cycling and was trying to be high level at both. It didn't work. While my erg racing and otw racing both yielded some excellent results in the past year (WR, Gold at Boston, gold medal otw at masters in the lwtD4+) they were not moving me forward. I made the decision to commit full time to cycling in September and was just playing out the cards at EIRC. Paul was aware of all this and worked with me to maintain a level of competitiveness that allowed me to step up the cycling side of things. Slower time yes, still competitive, yes. Not up to the times of races past, yes. but not the doing of Paul or his training. That lies squarely on my shoulders, I am thankful for the help and support Paul and his program gave me to still be in the race when clearly my focus was elsewhere. live well, live strong. dennis

[becz]

No mystery here. I was full time rower/erger at the Wirc the last three years. Last year I moved over to cycling and was trying to be high level at both. It didn't work. While my erg racing and otw racing both yielded some excellent results in the past year (WR, Gold at Boston, gold medal otw at masters in the lwtD4+) they were not moving me forward. I made the decision to commit full time to cycling in September and was just playing out the cards at EIRC. Paul was aware of all this and worked with me to maintain a level of competitiveness that allowed me to step up the cycling side of things. Slower time yes, still competitive, yes. Not up to the times of races past, yes. but not the doing of Paul or his training. That lies squarely on my shoulders, I am thankful for the help and support Paul and his program gave me to still be in the race when clearly my focus was elsewhere. live well, live strong. dennis

Dennis,
First of all, congratulations. Just to say again, no disrespect to the achievement of you or Roy. I've seen the posts about your intending to move on, so I figured that played into things.

The only reason I decided to point this out is that Paul has often proclaimed the benefits of his program, comparing it to the Wolverine Plan (developed over decades of experience) and claiming similar successes. To me a successful plan is evidenced by year over year improvement and maximizing an individual's potential. It doesn't necessarily mean world championships or records, because we aren't all blessed by the gene pool gods. BUT, the best plan will allow the best athlete to win consistently. Maybe time will tell about 10mps, but so far the data points say the jury is still out.

[PaulS]

Huwever you are, get the chip off your shoulder. If you don't like what I have to say or have questions about it, go ahead and ask, I'll answer. But if you want to get into some sort of pissing match, I can do that too, I'm just not going to start it. I've got more productive things to do.

You are starting to sound like Ranger, nothing will ever be enough. Sure there are other ways to train, but I've been around a lot of them for a long time and distilled a bit of knowlege over that time. Regardless if it was 20+ years ago on a Model A, the performance is completely valid, as proven with a recent side by side test of the Speedo/ODO Vs the electronic PM, so say what you want, I know the level at which I have performed personally, so that is not really questionable at this point. (I'm only mentioning it because you brought it up last time you were screaming at me.) Not that performing at a high level is required to know what it takes, but it doesn't hurt either. You sound to me a lot like a guy who would use the "ergs don't float" line, and that surprises me since you have not always been so ignitable as since the girls 4x incident. Hell, I don't care about that 4x at all, "They're GREAT, perfect, can't possibly get any better!" How's that? (I'm happy to lie if it will unruffle your feathers. I wasn't trying to ruffle them in the first place, in fact just trying to be helpful.)

What was that head start you were going to give me on the Erg anyhow? You ran away after your previous chest pounding, and I need a bit of motivation (so give me your PB also, so I have a specific target.).

[George Dunning]

The only reason I decided to point this out is that Paul has often proclaimed the benefits of his program, comparing it to the Wolverine Plan (developed over decades of experience) and claiming similar successes.

First of all PaulS, calm down , now having said that I can certainly understand your frustration.




Becz, would you care to show me where Paul has 'often' proclaimed the benefits of his programme (do you even know what his programme is, have you ever taken the time to speak to Paul about it), and I have never seen him 'criticize' the Wolverine plan (as I have never seen Mike C rubbish Paul, despite the decades of success - becz apart from Mike, (who I love to read his posts) who holds a WR training using the WP ).

To my knowledge Paul has never outlined or held up his programme other than to explain his reasons for 'fixing' DPS.

While I am on a rant , I would just like to say that I have 'bailed' out of the UK forum as this sort of personalized attack has gone to far there and I hope it does not happen here to

whew .... now merry Christmas to all and becz I love you like a brother and I respect your right to an opinion

george

[german answer]

[quote="PaulSYou should be winning everything in your 2x, at least in the Masters world of 1k racing. That is moving very well!

Unless you are in a 1x, there is going to be some generalism, unless you have worked out the details of asynchronous sculling.

[/quote]

Ok no secrets as well: we only lost one race in our first season 2003 in Masters Class. The other Team won by nearly 1 sec. A propos it was the really unexperienced and young Mr. Lange (36) and another younger partner (33) of the german world champ quad. Since 2003 we never lost a Masters race (including Word and Euro Masters).

So what we make different? Everything! We don´t use same oars ( you may understand that I prefer C2), we nor use the same shaft length, neither the same inboard length. Yes the oarlock heigth is different as well. Why? Because we are different! But the seats and the footstretchers are the same.

[Thomas]

Sorry Thomas to contradict you, but I wll never use df 120. I use around 210 in race, and sometimes 300 for special strength workouts. The last years I can improve my otw times as well, with such system. I never do any additional weight training, because I think the whole muscle slings for the rowing movement, can be strengthened by high resistance rowing.

I didn't know you are Jurgen Schwab. Congratulations on your race. I watched it live on the internet from California.

I tried the higher drag concept during the summer but did not find it worked for me. I was using a drag above 160 but as of a couple of months ago I went back to 135-138. The idea of using a higher drag came from knowing that Andreas Von Tonder uses a drag around 180. The higher drag was bothering my lower back. That is amazing to me that you are racing with 210 and training with 300.

The other issue I take notice of is where people position their feet. It looked like you may have had your foot stretchers in hole set 4 or 5. It appears Andrew Sangsters has his feet in hole set 3 or 2. I just recently went back to hole set 5 after having tried hole sets 3 and 4. I thought if I raised my feet I could drive with my legs better, but it just was not the case for me. The more elevated foot positions made me feel awkward and also seemed to put additional stress on my lower back.

At times in my training, I may actually be physically undergoing the stress of a higher drag factor than what is being presented on the PM3. Today is a good example of a session I did where I had the drag factor set at 138 and my feet positioned in hole set 5. The session was to do 30 minutes of continuous 6-minute sequences of 2-minutes @ 18 spm with a target 1:56 pace, 2-minutes @ 20 spm with a target 1:52 pace, and 2-minutes @ 22 spm with a target 1:48 pace. For me, I have to immediately get on it and make each stroke count to hit the pace at the indicated spm. I thought in what way is this drag factor at these spm and paces be equivalent to some much higher drag factor, attempted at a different spm's, to achieve the same target pace, but I have no idea on how to convert such numbers. Nonetheless, the weight of the oar handle I am feeling with the 138 drag factor is probably not truly represented of the amount of effort required by me to these paces at these restricted spm's. I did good at this session today with an average result pace of of 1:51.6 and with an average spm of 20. Based on my personal experience with the 1:51.6 pace for 30 minutes done at a higher consistent spm, like 24 spm, would make the session not so heavy on my body and would actaully be easier on me. So, I think, what higher drag factor and what spm would I have to row at to achieve the paces in the above 6-minute sequence to create the same physical effect I feel when I row as described above?

Interesting is that the 138 drag factor at these spm's and paces doesn't bother my lower back. Furthermore, I found myself driving with bent arms at the higher drag factors, which is quite annoying particularily when it burns out by biceps. I considered perhaps that the core of my body may not be strong enough to sustain the stress of the higher drag, which caused my body to compensate somewhere else and to modify my drive.

[Thomas]

I posted the above, updated my diary, checked on other diaries, and just learned that Carole McNally has revealed she has cancer.

[becz]

Huwever you are, get the chip off your shoulder. If you don't like what I have to say or have questions about it, go ahead and ask, I'll answer. But if you want to get into some sort of pissing match, I can do that too, I'm just not going to start it. I've got more productive things to do.

You are starting to sound like Ranger, nothing will ever be enough. Sure there are other ways to train, but I've been around a lot of them for a long time and distilled a bit of knowlege over that time. Regardless if it was 20+ years ago on a Model A, the performance is completely valid, as proven with a recent side by side test of the Speedo/ODO Vs the electronic PM, so say what you want, I know the level at which I have performed personally, so that is not really questionable at this point. (I'm only mentioning it because you brought it up last time you were screaming at me.) Not that performing at a high level is required to know what it takes, but it doesn't hurt either. You sound to me a lot like a guy who would use the "ergs don't float" line, and that surprises me since you have not always been so ignitable as since the girls 4x incident. Hell, I don't care about that 4x at all, "They're GREAT, perfect, can't possibly get any better!" How's that? (I'm happy to lie if it will unruffle your feathers. I wasn't trying to ruffle them in the first place, in fact just trying to be helpful.)

What was that head start you were going to give me on the Erg anyhow? You ran away after your previous chest pounding, and I need a bit of motivation (so give me your PB also, so I have a specific target.).

Thanks, Paul. I had a good laugh in reading your message. Gosh, where to start, where to start. Well, first let me say I was never "screaming". I'm not quite sure where you get that from. Look in the mirror, maybe. And who are you to talk about a chip on his shoulder? Good god, I'm amazed you can even walk upright.

Second, the fact that you have to rely on a performance of 20 years ago, and go to such great lengths to try to give it any credibility at all, is just sad.

When have I _ever_ been ignitable. Even when the discussion the of 4x video was going on, I was only replying to you misreading everything I wrote.

And I'm more than happy to compare numbers with you. My PB as a 37 year old lighweight is 6:29. I'll be racing at CRASH-B's. See you there.

[becz]

Becz, would you care to show me where Paul has 'often' proclaimed the benefits of his programme (do you even know what his programme is, have you ever taken the time to speak to Paul about it)

Hmmm, well, the most recent is right on this thread isn't it? Let's see, scroll up, scroll up, ah, here it is:

That final bit is the underlying principle of the S10PS foundational Training that anyone who I coach adheres to. I'll let the results speak to the effectiveness of that training. Dennis and Roy are no secret.

I could easily find 10 other little "plugs" that Paul gives himself on the forum, but you know what, I just don't care to.

and I have never seen him 'criticize' the Wolverine plan (as I have never seen Mike C rubbish Paul, despite the decades of success - becz apart from Mike, (who I love to read his posts) who holds a WR training using the WP ).

Is 'criticize' a quote, George? Please show me where I said that. And oh, by the way, the Wolverine Plan trains rowers, and you can look at Michigan's rowing program sucess, as well as Mike's own world record using it.

To my knowledge Paul has never outlined or held up his programme other than to explain his reasons for 'fixing' DPS.

How long have you been here? Search for the STM (Stop the Madness, another chip on the shoulder kind of thing) plan.

While I am on a rant , I would just like to say that I have 'bailed' out of the UK forum as this sort of personalized attack has gone to far there and I hope it does not happen here to

whew .... now merry Christmas to all and becz I love you like a brother and I respect your right to an opinion

I in no way have any ill will toward Paul or anyone else for that matter. I'll be the first to agree that there are many ways to train. Some people will think certain aspects are important to focus on, and others will completely disagree. I don't see any need to always train at the ratio you will race at. A 100m sprinter doesn't do all of his running at his racing speed, even though foot speed is key.

But anyway, I wish everyone a Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, and a PB New Year.

[becz]

I posted the above, updated my diary, checked on other diaries, and just learned that Carole McNally has revealed she has cancer.

I read the above and felt that the bickering here seemed, well, silly in the grand scheme of things. Here's hoping and praying that Carole makes a full and swift recovery.

I suppose it's best to end the year on a positive note. I have no problems with Paul's training method, just his constant reminder to us of it. Maybe that's more my problem than his.

So here's hoping everyone is healthy, happy and fast next year.

P.S. But I will be at CRASH-B's.