Report finds Erg use is a risk factor for lower back injury

[RowtheRockies]

Tennstrike,

I would have to agree with Frank. Other than age, you and I are very similar. Same height, close to same weight and our PR's are within a second. I use to row with a drag factor of 125 but found that lowering to 115 has caused me less back pain and feels faster.

Rich

[JRBJR]

All this talk of erg-generated back injuries is frankly depressing and ironic, given that good health and fitness are primary use motivations for most of us. After using my Model C steadily for over a decade, I can report no back pain or symptoms of spinal disk damage. But I wonder how long that will last as I enter my 5th decade. Even with a low DF and good technique.

Makes we wish that Concept2 would design their own version of the RowPerfect, which is purported to be much easier on the back than the C2 ergs. Instead of wasting time building taller and sturdier "Cadillac" versions of the Model D. I'm guessing they could work around any patent RowPerfect might still have on the design. Build a Concept2 version with a great performance monitor, ease of installation and maintenance, high-quality parts, reasonable price, and excellent customer service. All the things that RowPerfect doesn't have.

[MomofJBN]

Way back at the beginning, this topic was about injury rates on ergs vs OTW. I was wondering if the difference has anything to do with a shell having sliders that limit how far forward you can come vs the erg where you can compress your seat as close to your feet as you want.

When I started erging, I found that I had to consciously limit how close to my feet I got at the catch. When I didn't, my knees hurt. I don't know what if any impact this difference might have on the back.

[TCMBUNA]

Way back at the beginning, this topic was about injury rates on ergs vs OTW. I was wondering if the difference has anything to do with a shell having sliders that limit how far forward you can come vs the erg where you can compress your seat as close to your feet as you want.

When I started erging, I found that I had to consciously limit how close to my feet I got at the catch. When I didn't, my knees hurt. I don't know what if any impact this difference might have on the back.

I think you may be on to something here. When squating heavy I was having problems with my lower back. I video taped my form and found that my lower back was rounding at the bottom of my squat. After sending the video to someone to review I found out that I had some hamstring and hip flexibility issues. Once I increased the flexibility there through static and dynamic stretching I was able to maintain better form at the bottom with no rounding of the lower back. What you have described above sounds almost identical.

[Rockin Roland]

All this talk of erg-generated back injuries is frankly depressing and ironic, given that good health and fitness are primary use motivations for most of us. After using my Model C steadily for over a decade, I can report no back pain or symptoms of spinal disk damage. But I wonder how long that will last as I enter my 5th decade. Even with a low DF and good technique.

Makes we wish that Concept2 would design their own version of the RowPerfect, which is purported to be much easier on the back than the C2 ergs. Instead of wasting time building taller and sturdier "Cadillac" versions of the Model D. I'm guessing they could work around any patent RowPerfect might still have on the design. Build a Concept2 version with a great performance monitor, ease of installation and maintenance, high-quality parts, reasonable price, and excellent customer service. All the things that RowPerfect doesn't have.

I completely agree with you. Rowperfect have a great machine but C2 should be capable of producing something better at a competitive price and their usual superb customer service. I believe their heading in the wrong direction with their model E.

A moving flywheel erg puts less strain on the back than a fixed flywheel erg.

[bw1099]

The motion of a RowPerfect looks very similar to a C2 with slides, so maybe C2 already has a solution. Am I missing something?

[JRBJR]

The motion of a RowPerfect looks very similar to a C2 with slides, so maybe C2 already has a solution. Am I missing something?

Yes, the slides allow Model C and D ergs to mimic the moving flywheel action of the RowPerfect. But they also add significantly to an already very long product footprint. Most of us don't have the floorspace for slides.

C2 got its reputation for innovation, competitive pricing, and excellent customer service. With more and more rowers (incuding Xeno Muller) citing the risks of fixed-flywheel erging, this is their chance to innovate again.

[Rockin Roland]

The motion of a RowPerfect looks very similar to a C2 with slides, so maybe C2 already has a solution. Am I missing something?

Yes you are. The C2 with slides is like designing a car and then putting the wheels on later. It's a tacky compromise. The original design needs a re-think to incorporate that motion into the one unit without the need for space comsuming slides.

[Dreadnought]

The motion of a RowPerfect looks very similar to a C2 with slides, so maybe C2 already has a solution. Am I missing something?

Just the fact that C2 makes slides to improve the action of the C2 is an admission that the original product is not optimal. Slides take up more space, and involve more moving parts, making it more complicated than it needs to be.

[johnlvs2run]

All this talk of erg-generated back injuries is frankly depressing and ironic, given that good health and fitness are primary use motivations for most of us. After using my Model C steadily for over a decade, I can report no back pain or symptoms of spinal disk damage. But I wonder how long that will last as I enter my 5th decade. Even with a low DF and good technique.

Makes we wish that Concept2 would design their own version of the RowPerfect, which is purported to be much easier on the back than the C2 ergs. Instead of wasting time building taller and sturdier "Cadillac" versions of the Model D. I'm guessing they could work around any patent RowPerfect might still have on the design. Build a Concept2 version with a great performance monitor, ease of installation and maintenance, high-quality parts, reasonable price, and excellent customer service. All the things that RowPerfect doesn't have.

I agree with you 100 percent, have also had no back problems ever with the erg but wish c2 would be more proactive with making the c2 ergs dynamic. Even so, a friend of mine who had long time back problems said they went away with his use of a model C.

Warren Berger turned a model B into a dynamic erg, with fixed seat and moving foot plates, fan in back. Apparently he contacted c2 and feels they weren't interested, but perhaps that has changed? Personally I think they should work with Berger in designing something that the model D can work into and beyond.

[johnlvs2run]

Here is Berger on his dynamic model B erg:

http://www.rowvelo.com/images/p1.jpg

http://www.rowvelo.com/images/p2.jpg

http://www.rowvelo.com/images/p3.jpg

I had a video of it somewhere but am not sure where it is.

[johnlvs2run]

Warren Berger on one of his Rowbikes:

http://www.rowvelo.com/video/both.mov
http://www.rowvelo.com/video/arms_short.mov

http://www.rowvelo.com/video/both_hill.mov
http://www.rowvelo.com/video/both_short.mov

[JimR]

Way back at the beginning, this topic was about injury rates on ergs vs OTW. I was wondering if the difference has anything to do with a shell having sliders that limit how far forward you can come vs the erg where you can compress your seat as close to your feet as you want.

When I started erging, I found that I had to consciously limit how close to my feet I got at the catch. When I didn't, my knees hurt. I don't know what if any impact this difference might have on the back.

I think you may be on to something here. When squating heavy I was having problems with my lower back. I video taped my form and found that my lower back was rounding at the bottom of my squat. After sending the video to someone to review I found out that I had some hamstring and hip flexibility issues. Once I increased the flexibility there through static and dynamic stretching I was able to maintain better form at the bottom with no rounding of the lower back. What you have described above sounds almost identical.

My daughter is a rower who can't run ... so she has always erged a lot of meters.

One of her "issues" was overcompression at the catch. The coaches sat her on an erg and pushed her to the catch, stopping where her shins were vertical.

Then they tied a rope on the bar at this point and she could not go further. The rope needs to be tight and a bungee would likely work too. This may work for both of you on the erg as well.

I can say that overcompression seems much less likely to me when erging on slides. People who have used both a C2/Slides and a RowPerfect tell me the motion is very similar.

JimR

[Bill Moore]

I've been thinking about this question for the past few months. I have a prolasped disc in my back at L5. I'm having surgery to fix it on 12 Dec. If all goes well I can resume my normal activities (running and rowing) after around 12 weeks. I've been laid up with this since May, and I wouldn't like to go through this again.

I've asked 2 chiropractors, a family practice doctor and the neuro surgeon who will cut me next month about rowing after recovery. They said 1) are you kidding, 2) why would you want to do that, 3) no way, and 4) not advisable unless you like coming to my office on a regular basis.

Are there any rowers out there who have come through a situation like mine? I loved to use my erg, but if I run the risk of more disc problems I'll give it up.

I had three herniated discs in my lower back from my days as an Army paratrooper. I also had surgery in 1995, but eventually had some very infrequent flareups. I decided to stop skiing, biking, golfing, etc, since I was afraid of injury. For some reason I bought a Model C in 1998, since I heard it was great exercise for the back and the entire body. The machine got dusty as it took 7 years to hit 1 million meters.

However, since 2005, I trained with the C2 and weights and have been in the best physical condition and ability in my life. My back does get sore, but it's not pain. I warm up, stretch, cool down, stretch, and do over 100k per week when training. I'm very sensitive to back pain and have taken the approach of fitness being the solution, and I've found that using the C2 is actually making my back (and my life) much better. (Oh, yeah, and I ski again, biked in France with my wife on our honeymoon, but I still suck at golf. Oh well!)

I don't think any doctor can tell you that it will be good for you unless they've consistently used the C2 themselves for conditioning. Follow their advice, but also use your own judgement.