Question for PaulS

[seat5]

Thanks, Paul. I am going to have to read this over a few times to really "get" it--it's just not simple to me.

Today I rowed with the monitor set on watts, just to see what it was like. I was supposed to do 57 UT2 (target is supposed to be 2:14). It ended up at 2:06.8, mostly I think because I was so unfamiliar with watts that I didn't really know what I was doing, and I had forgotten to write down from James' chart the watts I was aiming for (around 160).

I found this calculator http://www.machars.net/spi.php and used it to figure out the av. DPS (11.83) and the av. SPI (8.58) (13483 meters, 57 minutes, 172 av watts, 2:06.8 av pace, 20 spm, ratio about 2, or as near as I could make it so.) And why my IP plan said 57 minutes is beyond me but I didn't really care to do another 60 strokes so that was fine with me.

2119m 169w 2:07.4 8.26 spi 9.29 mps (no warmup)
2832m 170w 2:07.1 8.52 spi 12.42 mps
2853m 174w 2:06.1 8.73 spi 12.51 mps
2874m 178w 2:05.2 8.92 spi 12.61 mps
2802m 165w 2:08.4 8.27 spi 12.29 mps

I found it harder to hold a particular wattage than a particular pace--it must be more sensitive than the pace setting?

Last question: you said spi is useless if not tied to dps. How can it be untied from dps? One goes up and the other must go up with it, mustn't it? The numbers are all related--can you be fooled by spi and think maybe you are doing great but if your mps are too low you're not? I don't quite understand how you can "game the numbers", can you explain it?

[Sitwronge]

CARLA I HOPE THIS MESSAGE BY PAUL S WILL HELP TO EXPLAIN HIS TRAINING TO YOU!

I know the big words are tough to read and understand, so it's best that you just go back to eating our of your dogs bowl, and chasing the neighborhood cats. Just don't actually catch the cats, because they will scratch you.

Bub-bye bow-wow.

BUT WE NEED MORE INFORMATION!

HOW MUCH OF THE DOG FOOD DOES HE EAT AND HOW MANY CATS AND HOW OFTEN DOES HE EAT THEM

[GeorgeD]

John not funny

(a disappointed) George

[PaulS]

John not funny

(a disappointed) George

No Worries George, Ducks Quack, Dogs Bark, John does both, it's all fun.
Of course being too chicken to post without hiding behind a false name just makes him look all the more silly (as if that's possible). Next thing you know, John will be posting to Sitwronge, telling him to stop impersonating him. Sever mental instability on his part.

Johnny boy, here boy, come on, have a milk bone, keep those teeth clean.

[jamesg]

Carla, pretty tough w/o there, well done - wish I could do the same.

Watts is more sensitive (=higher resolution), which is a good reason to use it, apart from the fact that Watts (power) is what the machinery measures and so is a direct indication of what you are actually delivering to the handle.

My method is to start slow aka warmup, then keep the instantaneous W at 0-5 above my 8-9W'/stroke target for UT2-1.

As you say, dps, spi (work per stroke) and rating are linked mathematically. I apply a minimum work criterion as said, as I do most w/os at low ratings and prefer to keep length and handle force constant, changing only the rating to change the CV load. If the boat goes further than 10m, I let her. As the Chinese do when it rains - they let it rain.

[Sean Seamus]

QUOTE :
My method is to start slow aka warmup, then keep the instantaneous W at 0-5 above my 8-9W'/stroke target for UT2-1.
UNQUOTE

dear lord ! - please, I hope you meant 8-9 meters per stroke, not watts ! ? !

I know I am old and slow, but if your warm-up and UT2 work at 20 spm is at 180 watts, I really need to make sure my will and medical plans are up-to-date !

[PaulS]

Thanks, Paul. I am going to have to read this over a few times to really "get" it--it's just not simple to me.

Today I rowed with the monitor set on watts, just to see what it was like. I was supposed to do 57 UT2 (target is supposed to be 2:14). It ended up at 2:06.8, mostly I think because I was so unfamiliar with watts that I didn't really know what I was doing, and I had forgotten to write down from James' chart the watts I was aiming for (around 160).

I found this calculator http://www.machars.net/spi.php and used it to figure out the av. DPS (11.83) and the av. SPI (8.58) (13483 meters, 57 minutes, 172 av watts, 2:06.8 av pace, 20 spm, ratio about 2, or as near as I could make it so.) And why my IP plan said 57 minutes is beyond me but I didn't really care to do another 60 strokes so that was fine with me.

2119m 169w 2:07.4 8.26 spi 9.29 mps (no warmup)
2832m 170w 2:07.1 8.52 spi 12.42 mps
2853m 174w 2:06.1 8.73 spi 12.51 mps
2874m 178w 2:05.2 8.92 spi 12.61 mps
2802m 165w 2:08.4 8.27 spi 12.29 mps

I found it harder to hold a particular wattage than a particular pace--it must be more sensitive than the pace setting?

Last question: you said spi is useless if not tied to dps. How can it be untied from dps? One goes up and the other must go up with it, mustn't it? The numbers are all related--can you be fooled by spi and think maybe you are doing great but if your mps are too low you're not? I don't quite understand how you can "game the numbers", can you explain it?

All things interact, but lets' say DF and stroke length (cm) are held constant.

High SPI, High DPS, Low Stroke Rate, Slow Pace, High Ratio
Low SPI, Low DPS, High Stroke Rate, Fast Pace, Low Ratio

Then there is everything inbetween.

SPI by itself means little, i.e.
All SPI=10
200watts, R20, 2:00 Pace, DPS=12.5
300watts, R30, 1:45 Pace, DPS=9.5
400watts, R40, 1:35.5 Pace, DPS=7.9

All SPI = 12
200watts, R17, 2:00 Pace, DPS=14.7
300watts, R25, 1:45 Pace, DPS=11.4
400watts, R33, 1:35.5 Pace, DPS=9.5

So 2 different SPI's, 3 different Paces, 5 different DPS

Are all SPI=12 examples above more difficult than all SPI=10 examples?
Holding 2:00 R17 is easier than 1:45 R25, isn't it? Not that either is "easy", but just relating as an example.

Your SPI is ultimately what needs to be increased if you are wanting to go faster, but it's going to progress in a rather narrow range. Change it by 1 full unit for a given timed piece and that is quite a bit, at least after the initial practice effects that all rookies get excited about. You know what I'm talking about, "I've gone from 3:00 to 2:30 in a month, 2:00 should then be another month out, and after that I should be right at that 1:30 that these guys are saying is so tough."

[mdc45]

...

The one thing to note for sure is that if you fix the DPS (S10PS, 9MPS, 11MPS) the ratio for ALL paces being done will also be fixed (different for each DPS though). The ratio can be adjusted by using the Drag Factor (Lower DF = Higher Ratio, Higher DF = Lower Ratio), about 0.1 unit of ratio for each 10 units of DF (as long as drive length, cm, is maintained).
....

Paul,

after reading this I tried to row, at 10 mps with different drag settings from 137 down to 94, and the lowest 2 at 106 and 94 were the only ones I could keep to 10 meters/stroke without having to cut the stroke short. What is a "normal" drag to use to achieve 10mm/stroke? (I'm 6'1" with a reach of about 6'6"). Just wondering if this is normal or bad form because i'm a beginner.

[Sitwronge]

All things interact, but lets' say DF and stroke length (cm) are held constant.

High SPI, High DPS, Low Stroke Rate, Slow Pace, High Ratio
Low SPI, Low DPS, High Stroke Rate, Fast Pace, Low Ratio

Then there is everything inbetween.

SPI by itself means little, i.e.
All SPI=10
200watts, R20, 2:00 Pace, DPS=12.5
300watts, R30, 1:45 Pace, DPS=9.5
400watts, R40, 1:35.5 Pace, DPS=7.9

All SPI = 12
200watts, R17, 2:00 Pace, DPS=14.7
300watts, R25, 1:45 Pace, DPS=11.4
400watts, R33, 1:35.5 Pace, DPS=9.5

So 2 different SPI's, 3 different Paces, 5 different DPS

Are all SPI=12 examples above more difficult than all SPI=10 examples?
Holding 2:00 R17 is easier than 1:45 R25, isn't it? Not that either is "easy", but just relating as an example.

Your SPI is ultimately what needs to be increased if you are wanting to go faster, but it's going to progress in a rather narrow range. Change it by 1 full unit for a given timed piece and that is quite a bit, at least after the initial practice effects that all rookies get excited about. You know what I'm talking about, "I've gone from 3:00 to 2:30 in a month, 2:00 should then be another month out, and after that I should be right at that 1:30 that these guys are saying is so tough."

I know the big words are tough to read and understand, so it's best that you just go back to eating our of your dogs bowl, and chasing the neighborhood cats. Just don't actually catch the cats, because they will scratch you.

PAUL S THAT WAS ALL CONFUSING TO ME EXCEPT THE DOG FOOD AND THE CATS CAN YOU PLEASE TELL ME MORE ABOUT THIS PLEASE!!!!

THANK YOU!!!!

ALSO WHAT DOES SPI STAND FOR THANK YOU!!!!

[Sitwronge]

ALSO HOW MUCH DOG FOOD AND HOW MANY CATS DO YOU EAT???

THANK YOU!!!

[GeorgeD]

...

The one thing to note for sure is that if you fix the DPS (S10PS, 9MPS, 11MPS) the ratio for ALL paces being done will also be fixed (different for each DPS though). The ratio can be adjusted by using the Drag Factor (Lower DF = Higher Ratio, Higher DF = Lower Ratio), about 0.1 unit of ratio for each 10 units of DF (as long as drive length, cm, is maintained).
....

Paul,

after reading this I tried to row, at 10 mps with different drag settings from 137 down to 94, and the lowest 2 at 106 and 94 were the only ones I could keep to 10 meters/stroke without having to cut the stroke short. What is a "normal" drag to use to achieve 10mm/stroke? (I'm 6'1" with a reach of about 6'6"). Just wondering if this is normal or bad form because i'm a beginner.

I am 6'5" and currently rowing at 10mps and using 110df (but think I could go lower) which when rowing in the mid to low 1:50's at the moment I am still finding it rather easy to over power on a full stroke. Paul mentioned recently that for someone my height I could go to 105-100

George

[PaulS]

...

The one thing to note for sure is that if you fix the DPS (S10PS, 9MPS, 11MPS) the ratio for ALL paces being done will also be fixed (different for each DPS though). The ratio can be adjusted by using the Drag Factor (Lower DF = Higher Ratio, Higher DF = Lower Ratio), about 0.1 unit of ratio for each 10 units of DF (as long as drive length, cm, is maintained).
....

Paul,

after reading this I tried to row, at 10 mps with different drag settings from 137 down to 94, and the lowest 2 at 106 and 94 were the only ones I could keep to 10 meters/stroke without having to cut the stroke short. What is a "normal" drag to use to achieve 10mm/stroke? (I'm 6'1" with a reach of about 6'6"). Just wondering if this is normal or bad form because i'm a beginner.

Nice "Ape Factor" (Wingspan Vs Height).

With practice you will be able to go S10PS at any Drag factor, it becomes more difficult at the high DF's because the ratio becomes compressed and you have less time to execute your recovery, and when under time pressure, the recovery becomes considerably harder to do correctly.

This graphic shows the effect on drive time while maintaining Stroke Length (cm), Pace, and DPS at 10m/stroke.

Drive time with changing Drag Factor

The drive times vary from 0.58sec to 0.72, and even though a 0.14sec time difference doesn't seem like much, note that by 0.14sec into the drive, more than 80% of peak force has already been reached at slow flwheel speeds, a bit over 90% when working with a faster flywheel (low drag).

The saying goes, "Before you can accelerate the boat, you have to catch the boat."

[mdc45]

Thanks for the explanation and the graph Paul.

So which do you think is more beneficial for me to improve technique?

1) use a higher drag and work on recovery speed to maintain 10m/stroke
2) use a higher drag and fixed distance of 11 m/stroke
3) stick with the lower drag around 105 and practice 10m/stroke

[Sitwronge]

PAUL S DO YOU PUT MILK IN WITH THE DOG FOOD AND DOES THAT ATTRACT MORE CATS AND THEN HOW MANY STROKES WITH EACH CAT????

PLEASE HELP THANK YOU!!!!!

P.S. IS IT BETTER TO GO HIGHER OR LOWER??????

[GeorgeD]

Thanks for the explanation and the graph Paul.

So which do you think is more beneficial for me to improve technique?

1) use a higher drag and work on recovery speed to maintain 10m/stroke
2) use a higher drag and fixed distance of 11 m/stroke
3) stick with the lower drag around 105 and practice 10m/stroke

Just posted this on another thread, dont know if it helps in your decision making:

Did my session today at about 105/107 DF (s10mps) which on the machine I was using was about 3/4. 3 other machines being used by women who were all about half my size and all with the lever pushed up to setting 10, all heaving and yanking and no wonder they get off as soon as they can.

As HJS says at a low drag your just pulling quicker not harder, in fact the load on the handle 'feels' a lot less.

George