The Road to Boston 2007

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
Bob S.
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Post by Bob S. » September 28th, 2006, 3:33 pm

seat5 wrote:Bob,
Just curious what the goal was (& was that the same as the suggested AT pace?) Stroke rate was nice and steady,the pace variations show it was a struggle, but you went the distance so that is good. I always feel that if I have a crappy workout, it just brings me that much close to the next good one. It's illogical, of course, like pretending that if you do something terribly stupid first thing in the morning you are then home free, having already done your mistake for the day, but it works for me. Probably your next session will be great.
Carla,

Thanks for asking. My main problem is that I still haven't pinned down what my basic pace should be. I was shooting for <2:10 on the UT1s and <2:14 on the UT2s. This was going fine for several workouts, but they would correspond to an AT pace of 2:02, which is faster than my best 2k time here at altitude. My first ATs were 2x7' on Wednesday last week and my paces were 2:04.9 and 2:05.8. On Friday, my pace for an 8' AT was 2:06.1. On Monday, I did a 5k time trial in place of a 20' UT1 and hit a 2:09.1 pace, just a tenth of a second faster than my fastest UT1.

What it boils down to is that the IP chart shows about an 7-8 second difference in the UT1 and AT paces in this range and my differences are only 2-5 seconds.

I decided yesterday to try a more modest goal for the 2x8' ATs and picked 2:07 (2:06 is skipped on the chart or I would have picked that). On the first piece I succeeded with a tenth of a second to spare, but I was not at all happy that I had to get my HR up into the 150s to do it. On the second one, I fell short by 9 tenths of a second, with my HR in the high 140s ending at 151.

On each piece, I managed to have a final split faster than the others and on the second one, there was a general trend of negative splits. The splits on the first piece were not good. They held steady for the first 5 minutes, then climbed alarmingly for the next two until I was able to work it down back again in the last minute.

A simple, more direct answer to your question is a goal of 2:07 and suggested AT pace of 2:11.5 (interpolated), based on my best 2k time here at altitude, 8:18.5. I have ignored the suggested paces because the UT1 and UT2 paces just seemed to be much too easy: 2:18.5 and 2:23.5 (interpolated). I have never really resolved the problem of translating my best sea level 2k time, 7:54.9, to what I should expect at 4000 ft of altitude.

Bob S.
Last edited by Bob S. on September 28th, 2006, 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anne
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Post by Anne » September 28th, 2006, 5:08 pm

I think in one of Bob's entry, he used the expression that the "results weren't happy"-- well, I am at the end of week 5 and the last two AT pieces (yesterday and today) did not feel like happy results. :cry: The final stats looked OK....overall ended with 2:10, averaged 26 SR both days...and had a HR of 183 yesterday and 176 today. But, instead of intervals, I began yesterday's piece thinking I'd do a 4K for the CTC challenge instead...well I began too fast and truly pooped out....which is why the HR is high. Today, was better...both splits were almost identical and HR stayed at 176. But, I did it after an exhausting weight lifting session, so I was pretty wiped out by the end. The crazy thing is that the harder this sport is...the more it intrigues me.

The happy news :) for week 6 is that I have found a YMCA with many ergs to use when I travel next week. I can stay on schedule.

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Post by TomR » September 28th, 2006, 8:16 pm

Bob S. wrote: My main problem is that I still haven't pinned down what my basic pace should be. . . .
I decided yesterday to try a more modest goal for the 2x8' ATs and picked 2:07 (2:06 is skipped on the chart or I would have picked that).
Bob,

I believe you may be making a common mistake re IP paces. The chart is not a list of absolute paces, but ranges in which you can work. Where the chart says 2.07 for AT, anything between 2.07 and the UT1 pace of 2.14 sits w/in the AT band.

For shorter AT sessions, you may be able to work at the faster end of the spectrum. For longer AT sessions, you may find you have to ease off the accelerator a bit.

In other words, don't get fixated on the paces on the chart. It's a training "guide," not training dictator.

On Tues I did AT/2x8.

Today I did UT1/4x11/spm20

For AT, I'm working in the middle of the pace range.
For UT1, I'm right at the slow edge. SPM down from 21 to 20.

For both, I could do the sessions faster, by my HR would exceed the limits. It feels to me that if my HR cap were about 5 beats faster, the stars would align--pace, spm, and HR.

Too much to hope for.

Anne--

I try to jigger w/ the schedule so that I don't do ATs back-to-back. I'll either insert a UT1 or rest. So far, I've been able to manage that.

Tom

seat5
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Post by seat5 » September 28th, 2006, 8:59 pm

what I should expect at 4000 ft of altitude.
aha! that explains a lot. Where do you live, Denver?

I believe you may be making a common mistake re IP paces.
I am making it, too! I hope to keep making it, but if I have to I'll ease off, then I will stop making that mistake!

thinking I'd do a 4K for the CTC challenge
Anne, what team are you on?

It feels to me that if my HR cap were about 5 beats faster,
You could always edit the HR cap :wink: and call it the TomR plan!
Carla Stein--F 47 HWT

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Bob S.
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Post by Bob S. » September 28th, 2006, 9:47 pm

TomR wrote: Bob,
I believe you may be making a common mistake re IP paces. The chart is not a list of absolute paces, but ranges in which you can work. Where the chart says 2.07 for AT, anything between 2.07 and the UT1 pace of 2.14 sits w/in the AT band.
For shorter AT sessions, you may be able to work at the faster end of the spectrum. For longer AT sessions, you may find you have to ease off the accelerator a bit.
In other words, don't get fixated on the paces on the chart. It's a training "guide," not training dictator.
Tom
Tom,

Thanks for the comments. I am sure that it is part of the problem and I will start a different approach. Another part is that I am still fumbling a bit to pin down the proper bands and a reasonable HR max as well. It is also complicated by not knowing just how much to adjust for altitude. I did have a formula for that once - from the physics of rowing. I guess that I should look that up again and do a few calculations.

Bob S.

Bob S.
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Post by Bob S. » September 28th, 2006, 10:02 pm

seat5 wrote:
what I should expect at 4000 ft of altitude.
aha! that explains a lot. Where do you live, Denver?
No, the Owens Valley, where I live is on the east side of California, between the Sierra Nevada Range to the west and the Inyo and White Ranges to the east. It is long (about 100 miles), narrow (about 15 miles), deep (some of the mountains on each side go up to over 14 thousand feet), and surprisingly flat for the most part. Denver is higher — it is known as the "Mile High City." I saw an altitude sign alongside of one of the Denver freeways that gave it as exactly 5280 ft. Chamber of Commerce PR no doubt, but probably close enough. Some of the more active ergers on this forum live in mountain towns in the region of Denver and are at almost 8 thousand ft.

Bob S.

Anne
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Post by Anne » September 29th, 2006, 8:12 am

Carla- I am on the Forum Flyers....but am probably the slowest (and oldest) woman on the team

I did another AT piece early today but did it on the slower side (2:15 was the goal) to stay within HR bands. So, Tom, I followed 1/2 of your advice...I had to get a workout in before leaving town (which is why I did 3 AT pieces on consecutive days), but decided not to max-out on the HR effort. Anyway, it all seemed to come together and I finished feeling pretty good about the plan and my effort. :lol:
Goal: 2x 10' 3 minute rest....keep HR around 160, 2:15, 26 sr

4467 (2:14.3) 26 sr 161HR
2238 (2:14.0) 26 sr 158HR
2228 (2:14.6) 26sr 165HR

We have a 10 hour drive ahead of us...so I'm off. Hope you all have good training this week.

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Yankeerunner
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Post by Yankeerunner » September 30th, 2006, 11:26 am

Yankeerunner wrote:
GeorgeD wrote:I think a 26 week plan is to long.

George
You may be right. And I don't know if it is mental thing more than physical.

In my running days, when at my best, the fastest races I did came when I recovered from an injury or illness break with three months or less to get ready for a big event. Staying focused for that long wasn't much of a problem. Whenever I tried to plan further ahead some sort of a breakdown would occur some 3 or 4 months into it.

Even with the IP, as well thought out as it is, I have yet to make all 26 weeks without a couple of short breaks. Maybe I get too ambitious when it is supposed to be easy and do too much, leaving me a bit too tired when the harder stuff comes up. No fool like an old fool.

Rick
A book that I'm currently reading (brought to my attention in Andy Darling's Diary on the UK site) brought this back to mind.

The author, Pat Butcher, was referring to Steve Ovett, coming back from glandular fever that had cost him three months of training:

"If anything, the enforced rest had done him good. The results for the rest of the season suggest so, and give lie to athletes' obsession with training. After an enforced rest, an athlete often runs much better, yet the lesson is rarely learned."

As I mentioned above, I often found a similar thing during my running days. Now I just have to figure out precisely how to use that information. :?

Rick

TomR
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Post by TomR » September 30th, 2006, 1:12 pm

Going in the opposite direction of "enforced rest," I expect my session today falls under the heading of "bad judgment."

Instead of AT 2x10, I did the CTC 4k. Reports of a women out-racing me touched off the predictable glandular reaction. Heading into a hard IP week w/ a 2k test next Sunday, a plan-busting workout was probably stupid. But I beat her, upholding the honor of old and foolish men.

4k at 15.48.9/1.58.6/HR 164/23 spm

Went 1.58.8 for 3,200 mtr.
1.58.0 for the final 800 mtr.

HR well above the limit. But not in any distress. Began to feel it in the lungs a bit w/ about 1,200 to go.

SPM reasonably low, well-controlled. I've got plenty of "headroom" to go faster, if I've got the heart and lungs to do the work.

Tom

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GeorgeD
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Post by GeorgeD » September 30th, 2006, 4:03 pm

Yankeerunner wrote: ... A book that I'm currently reading ....

Rick
"The Perfect Distance" :?:

George
48MHW

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Yankeerunner
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Post by Yankeerunner » September 30th, 2006, 4:31 pm

GeorgeD wrote:
Yankeerunner wrote: ... A book that I'm currently reading ....

Rick
"The Perfect Distance" :?:

George
Yes. B)

seat5
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Post by seat5 » September 30th, 2006, 5:09 pm

I've got plenty of "headroom" to go faster, if I've got the heart and lungs to do the work.
Tom
I don't! also a case of "poor judgement" for me but I had to do another 4K CTC because Krysta said I had to! :twisted: It is way too early for me to be doing this because I haven't got enough base so this felt really awful. I rowed it on a standard erg.

4K 15:47.3 27 spm
1:58.5 28
1:58.8 27
1:59.5 27 rowing througha sea of quicksand...blarghghgh
1:59.1 26
1:55.9 28
Tomorrow I will be good and do my IP workout.
Carla Stein--F 47 HWT

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whaskell
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Post by whaskell » October 1st, 2006, 7:49 am

Saturday morning: 10min WU 2276m

AT 2x10min / max pace 1:50 / 26-28spm

Target:- 2x10min / avg pace 1:52 / 27spm/3:30min rest

Actual:- 10min / avg pace 1:51.8 / 27spm / 2684m / 3:30min rest
Actual:- 10min / avg pace 1:50.9 / 27spm /2704m / 3:30min rest

Total Session: 6924m

This felt good today - cranked it up a little on the second one.


Sunday Morning: 8min WU 1774m

UT1 4x11min / max pace 1:54.5 / 22-24 spm

Target:- 4x11min / avg pace 1:58 / 23spm/3:30min rest

Actual:- 11min / avg pace 1:58.0 / 23spm / 2797m / 3:30 rest
Actual:- 11min / avg pace 1:59.7 / 23spm / 2756m / 3:30 rest
Actual:- 11min / avg pace 2:00.8 / 23spm /2732m/ 3:30 rest
Actual:- Handle down

Total session: 9692m

This was not fun. I new it was going to be difficult. After my AT workout yesteday I spent 8 hours reroofing my Dad's barn. Back and legs were sore and tired this morning before getting on the erg. Felt like quitting after first repetion, but decided to back off on pace. Put the handle down after the 3rd repetition. Time to rest up and get back into it on the next one.
Will Haskell, M50, lwt

seat5
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Post by seat5 » October 1st, 2006, 9:00 am

This was not fun. I new it was going to be difficult. After my AT workout yesteday I spent 8 hours reroofing my Dad's barn. Back and legs were sore and tired this morning before getting on the erg. Felt like quitting after first repetion, but decided to back off on pace. Put the handle down after the 3rd repetition. Time to rest up and get back into it on the next one.
Ugh. Good for you for sticking it out for 3 reps. How many sessions a week is your plan? I'm on 4 so if I row 2 days in a row it's because I added a session of my own in.

Is the barn finished?
Carla Stein--F 47 HWT

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Post by TomR » October 1st, 2006, 5:35 pm

UT1 / 4x12 min

Did all 4 at the slow end of the band, 2.08

HR in the last 3 was almost flat: 140, 140, 142. That means either I can go at this pace for a long time, or as is sometimes the case when HR doesn climb as expected, I am fatigued. If I had a Suunto t6, I might know the answer.

Did the last 3 at 19 spm. My power appears to be improving slightly.

Tom

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