Drag factors

[HardGainer]

I'm sure there's no one 'correct' value but I'm curious to know what sort of drag factors people use for sprint racing (500m, 1000m).

I attended my first indoor rowing comp about this time last year. It was the first time I'd met anyone with any idea of how to row other than the '35spm, damper 10, 2:15 pace, arm-rowing' masses on the C2s at the local gym! Someone introduced me to drag factors about 5 minutes before I rowed my 500m . Opinions among the "experts" present seemed to vary from: "DF should be around 130 for 'blokes'" to "Just put the damper on 10 and go for it mate". I had no idea if anyone was BSing me or not, but I used 130, 'cause I never saw anyone else before me pushing the damper to 10.

I've since heard a couple of people whom I believe to be knowledgeable in these things say men should race all short distances
(say 100m - 500m) with maximum damping, unless they're lightweights.

I've tried 500m racing at DFs ranging between ~110 and ~215 (maximum damping on my machine) but find I prefer around 170 - 175.

Does this seem typical for my weight, (lack of) height, age, strength ... whatever? What factors determine the differences between optimal DFs for individuals?

Would appreciate any comments, advice etc. on this and DFs in general.

Thanks

[jamesg]

The erg is mainly for CV training, so I set the df at a value (130-140) that lets me carry on for a long time with what I think is an efficient i.e. long stroke. If the df is too high, you can't move the flywheel, so do no work; if it's too low, you can't catch up with the flywheel, so also do no work. Put it somewhere in the middle so that your catch is quick but the load not too heavy. Heavy loads cause injuries, which are the main enemy (after laziness) of fitness, so if we err, it's best to err on the light side.

[johnlvs2run]

You develop more endurance and finesse, with the drag factor being lower.

My 500m PB was at a df of 109. Previous ones had been higher. My marathon PB was at a df of 77. Other PB's were in between.

This morning I lowered the df to 65 again and this feels very good.

[FB1]

HG
Your profile indicates more sprinting and power work than long distance stuff. For intervals and sprint races etc you may want to work with a higher DF (135+) than the abundant long distant advocates that will reply!
Just start lowering the lever and find what works best for you!
FB1

[HardGainer]

Thanks guys. I really appreciate your quick responses! I feel sure the points you've each made are valid but I realise now that it would be more helpful if I expanded a bit on my own situation. My apologies for not doing so.

Thanks in particular to FB1 for taking into consideration the few details I provided in my profile. FB1 I've reduced the damping down from the top and found at values significantly lower than say 165 I can't get the same pace - seems I can't shorten the recovery time enough to compensate for the reduced resistance during the drive. Or maybe it's just that I can't up the speed of my drive to compensate for the lower resistance. I've got fairly short legs (according to my wife!) - my ROM along the monorail being about 50cm (just under 20 inches).

I realise most here see the erg as a means of developing/testing/maintaining "endurance" and that many of you race on the water - which I imagine to be far more demanding of technique, balance, tactics etc.

That's not me! I'm not a rower. I don't even consider myself an indoor rower. I've never rowed OTW, I'm not particularly interested in endurance but I find the erg is great for pushing the anaerobic threashold out and, to a lesser extend, for maintaining and supplementing strength training with weights. (I'm also a bit of a techno-freak and have a physics background so get turned on by the analytical nature of it all, courtesy of the PM3 data ... more than just another electronic toy!)

James, you seem to be equating CV training with endurance training, whereas I see training for endurance as just one aspect of it. Sprinting undoubtedly develops and places demands on the cardio vascular system.

I do a mix of activites but, as said earlier, biased towards the strength/short-distance ones:
My "CV training" is a mix of sprinting, Tabata intervals, 20-min HIIT sessions and the occasional 2K and 5K on the erg. (I've even been known to erg 10K+, but the thought of sliding back and forth in the same location for a half or full marathon leaves me cold; but I guess the thought of doing pullups with 20kg weights hanging off your waist might leave others cold! Each to their own ) I'm a somewhat infrequent "fine weather" road cyclist (commuting about 40km to work and back) and I've been in a couple of 160-km cycle races in the last couple of years. Once or twice a year there's nothing I enjoy more than spending maybe 10 days hiking/climbing in rugged mountainous country.

I haven't inherited the best genes for endurance events as I have circulatory problems and I "run" like a turtle with three legs. I'm too short in the leg and too light to have ever been a competitive rower. As my pseudonym suggests I've had to work very hard to build and maintain what muscle mass I have.

I guess I'm really interested in the fact that my optimum DF seems to be quite a bit higher than the figures I've seen bandied around - even for 500m sprints, and I wondered why this should be so.

Maybe I've answered my own question! But if there is anyone else with a similar background to me it would be great to hear your views.

Once again - really appreciate everyone's comments.

[johnlvs2run]

Sprinters typically have very small hearts and relatively weak CV systems.

[HardGainer]

A cheap one-liner that is neither relevant to the subject I was hoping to learn more about, nor very meaningful as it stands. The variations in LV volumes and cardiac wall thicknesses due to ethnicity, age, gender etc. have more statistical significance than the variations observed between different sporting disciplines in the (admittedly limited) literature that I've read. CV "strength" is a pretty ill-defined term without qualification. So again, if you equate CV strength with endurance then obviously highy specialised elite sprinters will have less endurance than will have highly specialised elite endurance athletes - e.g. VO2 max. values normalised for body weight. So other than perhaps to rile, I'm not sure what your point is there. However, I'd appreciate your providing details of the source(s) of your information regarding heart sizes for my future enlightenment.

Thank you for your earlier comments about the DFs that you use and about injury but I'm really interested in comparing values used by people of similar body types, similar weights and for people with similar strengths.

=====

Hey now can I slip out of character and play with this wee fellow just this once? It's obviously what he wants me to do and it will provide him with perhaps 20 seconds' worth of amusement.

John my friend: As if you didn't need to be told, people who feel they have to continually make innane comments in an attempt to rile others only show us how insecure and pathetic they are. While playing like this might seem like "fun" for the participants now and then, it very quickly becomes tiresome for most rational thinking people if practised to excess. Some would call it wanking. Appearing insecure and pathetic is not the image any normal, self-respecting, socially balanced person would want to convey of themselves. I'd say "Mature and grow up buddy!" but perhaps it's a case of having progressed beyond maturity. My challenge to you John is simply to spend one single week of your life - starting from the moment you finish reading this - without once showing yourself to be the obnoxious little twerp that you seem determined to continually present yourself as on this forum. I'm sure you're not really like that or you would have few, if any, friends.

Now you don't have to play if it's too hard but I'm sure if you really, really put your big heart and strong CV system into it you could do it mate, otherwise I look forward to seeing you fail miserably with yet another one of your *sigh* deeply meaningful posts!

Game Over for me. The field is yours.

[GeorgeD]

John we share one thing in common (apart from country of origin) and that is that our shorter distance performances outshine our longer ones. I hear what you are saying regarding your abhorrence of longer pieces and the need to do them definitely is determined by what your goals are.

I have had a quick look back and I cant see where you have stated a desire to 'race' anything longer than 500m so if this is your goal distance then your training methodology would be different to most on these boards. As your 500m race is over in less than 1:30 the energy source is going to be fueled primarily in an anaerobic manner and sitting there for an hour at 2:00 pace is not going to do a whole lot to assist in that regard.

The Tabata intervals and etc are probably going to reap the most rewards and for longer pieces up to your 5k's maybe doing them in a fartlek style where you up the rate and pace and then back off to recover.

The 500m is basically a 'fly and die' and done at higher rates than normal. For me my best of about 1:23 was done at about 38 - 40 but I probably started off a bit higher and the average came down towards the end. The technique most seem to employ is to get the fan spinning and just keep it there with a high rate and shorter than normal stroke - as you know it is not pleasant but it doesn't last You can use the analogy of getting a top 'spinning' and then just keeping it there. Most people would find that they can use a slightly higher DF than they would / could for a 1k or 2k, however if it is to high you will die before the finish and lose valuable time. I think that the only time I would ever race on max is on a 100m or maybe a 300m, and usually I would say a DF of no more than 20 above your normal setting for a 500 unless you have used it in practice, but practice and preparation is the way to go.

regds George

[FB1]

John and George,

It is now time to accept your life destiny of being FB rowers like the esteemed Paul Smith, Jone Bone and myself. I know your Kiwis and i'll hate myself in a minute for this especially after the last Bledisloe Cup game, but what the hell.
Sprints, intervals, fartleks and lifting weights are all good, you don't have to spend all day training at resting HR+3!!

FB1
(Fat Boyz Rowing Club)

[HardGainer]

Ah, at last, someone around here with a modicum of wit ... and an ex-pat Aussie to boot? Nah, just kidding mate! I admire the Aussie spirit.

Fat Boyz Rowing Club. Now I could really take to being a member of that, on two counts: (1) I've spent my life wanting to be fat or even just called fat, and (2) Only hours ago I launched into my second childhood - as indicated above by my replying to John Rutt.

*Thinks: I can see people reaching for the Ignore button on this post already*

Great to catch up with you too George. Thanks for making contact and for your offer of information.

[marathonoflife]

how does one 'affect'/change the drag factor,
(other then slowing down their rate).

at the YMCA, the erg. is set to 173 at 10.

I initially tried it, at a 6,
and felt there was no point in doing anything,
it was way too easy,
so after moving it to 10
realized it was good enough.
felt like some work was accomplished.

this means, that all my times, distances
are done with a drag factor of 173,
and even trying anything less

i felt like there was no resistance at all.

now mind you,
i do have sensory difficulties
due to my spinal lesions
(i.e. I do not 'feel' the fact that my feet could be
freezing)
so perhaps am not 'feeling' the exertion,
and there infact is some
at a drag factor less the 173,
but i didn't feel it
and felt it awkward to try to wait...
for the wheel to slow down enough
so that i would feel some type of 'pulling'
on the next stroke.

something obviously is wrong here right?

everyone I have read speaking about
this issue
speaks of the lower drag factors being better for
what I am aiming for (practicing the 1000m in indoor rowing
while training for a half marathon distance road race in
my wheelchair)

can anyone shed some light onto

1) why do I not feel like i can row at all,
with a the damper on anything other then 10 (infact I recall asking them,
how can we turn the 10=173 to a 10=220 or something of the sort,
and the YMCA manager said that they didn't know how)

2) why do I row at such a 'high' (173) drag factor,
and yet seem to be 'doing ok' (as for what folks said in my intro post)
and when I compare my times to even Canadian indoor rowing championship adapted rowing times,
my current times beats the gold winner in the 1000m

this cannot be possible
I have rowed only since mid. June...

and I am not some superhuman
merely trying to keep myself from getting injured
(but i certainly take my sports seriously,
and train 4-5 hrs/day 4 days a week, and 2-3 hrs/day for two more days taking one off -I really want to qualify for Boston before I die,
and if can learn to scull -qualify for the national paralympic team -but i honestly don't think i will live that long)...

can someone help me understand what I must be doing wrong
so I can get some more realistic times on the erg.

-is it possible that the whole machine is not reporting proper
figures (time, distance, average/500m etc.)?

-minna (confused)

[marathonoflife]

i guess for anyone to properly be able to reply,

they would need to know that:

am a 40 yr old 'heavyweight' woman.
am in a wheelchair, so sit on a chair (over the slider)
and use only abs, back, shoulders and arms to erg with.

do the 500m, just to see how fast i can do it (fun stuff)
do the 1000m to practice for the indoor finals in Feb. in Toronto.
do the 2000m, 5000m, 30 min. and occasionally 10,000m
for endurance training when can't ride my chair
on the roads for 15 to 20KM.

and currently am about 55 days to race day (for the half marathon)
thus use the erg. right now for speed work (the 1000m)
which I work my way up to 750m at about 35spm and a 155bpm heart rate,
and the last 250 i give it all i got,with about 38-44spm
bringing me usually up to about 186bpm heart rate,

or for endurance, which i keep myself at a steady 31-33spm
and 38-146bpm hear rate
for the longer distances.

does any of that make sensible sense to anyone here?

(am I doing what I should be? or is something wrong...?)

[Bob S.]

how does one 'affect'/change the drag factor,
(other then slowing down their rate).
at the YMCA, the erg. is set to 173 at 10.
-minna (confused)

Minna,

I am sorry that I have no answers for your many questions. But I do have a comment on the YMCA erg. It seems to me that it needs a good cleaning. I have heard that a setting of 10 would give a drag factor of about 210. It will vary with the air density as well, lower at low atmospheric pressure, like at high altitude, and lower at high temperatures. But the major factor on the C and D models is the accumulation of dust in the cage. Anything that restricts the air flow (like setting the damper to a lower number) will lower the drag factor and dirt in the cage can do a good job of doing just that. My old model B had no problem like that, since it had an open cage and a drag factor of over 150 with the damper shut all the way. My new model D is still fairly clean, I hope, and the drag factor has a good range.

Whoa! I have to take that back. I stopped in the middle of this message to check mine out and at the highest damper setting, the DF was only 178-179. Perhaps it needs a cleaning out already after only 6 months, but it is in a relatively dust-free environment, so I have a hunch that it might be the difference in air pressure, since I am at 4000 ft. The current temperature in that room is 81 degrees F which would also make for a lower DF. From what I can see, the inside does not look dusty. What is the elevation of the Y where you work out? And what have the temperatures been lately? Removing the screen from the cage should raise the DF, but I doubt if the Y would be cooperative about that. Lowering the DF is easy - just block the flow a bit, but raising it requires opening it up.

Bob S.

[johnlvs2run]

Hi Minna,

The higher drag factor is probably better for you, because of the difficulty applying more speed to the handle.

You can increase the drag factor by wiping off the holes around the perimeter and side of the fan cage with a damp cloth, and then wipe them again very well with a dry one. This will remove most of the dust from the holes.

[marathonoflife]

thank you.

much appreciated.

the elevation here varies from 850 to 950 feet (I think the YMCA is closer to 850 feet).

Temperatures have been hot and humid (for us that means
95F or more and 50%+ humidity).

Inside they have airconditioning and I really have no idea
about the temp. comfortable anyways...

I will clean out the sides of the fan tomorrow!

and see how high the df will go on 10.

John, that makes good sense to me,
re: applying more speed to the handle.
Assume thus it would only benefit me if I can get the df a little higher
with the cleaning.

Have been working hard at being steady, and
concentrating on having the same amount of
'pull' on both sides of my body.
(started off in Jan. 06
with a handgrip of only 15 lbs on left side, and 55 lbs on right,
now the left is 65 and right is 95, still need to concentrate
on being even on both sides).

I will clean diligently tomorrow
and see what happens to the drag factor,
as well as to my rowing.

thanks again.

-minna