The psychology of the 'Handle down' - ?

[jjpisano]

Mark:

Beta blockers are going to keep you from elevating your heart rate. That's one of the major effects Beta blockers have.

It would seem to me that you probably can get a lot of beneficial effects from the rowing machine; however, seriously maxing out your heart rate should not be part of your reportoir of activities on the machine while you are on beta bockers. Your max heart rate will depend on the level of the drug in your system.

How bad is your blood pressure? Perhaps, if you are very interested in maxing out your efforts you could do what Row the Rockies did and ask for a change in your blood pressure meds.

One more point, with a betablocker on board, you may very well have been maxing out your heart rate. You just couldn't go any higher. You probably were nearly killing yourself(literally?). When you nearly kill yourself, I think it's understandable to put the handle down. You really ought not to be disappointed with your effort. [/quote]

[mpukita]

Jim:

What's frustrating is not knowing how much, or when, they have an effect. For example, today I'm not sure I could have driven the heart rate much more above 141. It was about 90 minutes after taking my meds.

I see an entry in last year's log, when I was keeping track of when I did a workout during the day, and I had a 164 HR at the end of a 5K race on RowPro -- which ended at about 9:00AM (after cool down). I am sure I did not take my meds before the race. I saw an entry a week or so later for a 167 at the end of a 1K race. Same start time. No meds before race.

So, before meds, it looks like the limit for me is probably about 170 (near calculated max), but shortly after meds (they're in the system), there appears to be a decrease ... maybe significant. Does this change throughout the day as the medication gets processed? I'll bet it does.

I may have to play around with my workout times and track like-for-like workouts to see what happens, keeping my medication intake time the same.

I am also definitely going to talk to my Doc about the possibility of changing meds.

Wow!

-- Mark

[JimR]

You're not suggesting constant, every day, improvement in distance/pace, are you?

Mark -

I am suggesting just that ... and as an avid follower of the WP I assumed you do too! Not a simplistic "every day faster" but a more evolved "logical cycle of workouts that allow for appropriate recovery, with each specific type of workout done at just a little higher performance than last time".

Of course this can't be done forever ... your pace does have a limit (0:00/500m)

The point I was making is that over time (weekly?) you would improve a little bit. Trying to make a big jump is a likely a "handle down" request in the making.

JimR

[GeorgeD]

Lots of interesting responses. I think it would be fair to say that if someone said they had never put the handle down in a training session they are one of 3 things:

A liar (which I dont think applies to many at all)
Extremely strong willed (and there are some)
Have never pushed the limits (and there may be some of those)

I think putting the handle down (or struggling with the thought) is something that is perfectly normal for anyone looking to improve and hence pushing the 'envelope' of performance.

For me I would say that most times (and there have not been many) when I have put the handle down in a training session (and that includes time trials), the seed was sown before I even sat down on the erg - the seed of doubt was sown and I let it grow. There have been times when I have fought thru these doubts and completed the row and met my goals and they bring great satisfaction, but as I say the mental preparation before hand is the key component to success in my opinion.

So how do you 'improve' this mental focus, this positivity, well I think that success breeds both further success and a positive attitude - so setting clear small goals and achieving them on a regular basis is a step in the right direction.

George

[rowmyboat]

Although I've never put the handle down George, I can relate to the stopping which I have done during 2,000m practices. Fortunately it has never happened during racing, the adrenalin doesn't allow it.
My solution to this worry was to place an enlarged Concept2 Pace Chart on the wall and vary my distances consistently which I hadn't previously done. I mark my time for each distance and work through them all gauging a slightly faster pace each time I sit down and row. I always work on the 'worst' time but each practice I do manage to improve either time or distance. If I've had an exceptionally good few weeks I then throw in the shorter distances, 100m and 300m as (like you I guess) we'll need them in competition soon.
I threw in a half marathon last weekend which enabled me to improve some middle distances this week. A complete change is as good as a holiday.
My improvement each time is ever so slight and I find the 2,000m the hardest of all to make great headway... but I have to agree with everyone else that at least 90% of improvement is mental attitude.

By the way have you entered the 100,000? I've got a team of 10 together, lots of newbies and we're going to have fun.

Cheers, Rowmyboat

[mpukita]

You're not suggesting constant, every day, improvement in distance/pace, are you?

Mark -

I am suggesting just that ... and as an avid follower of the WP I assumed you do too! Not a simplistic "every day faster" but a more evolved "logical cycle of workouts that allow for appropriate recovery, with each specific type of workout done at just a little higher performance than last time".

Of course this can't be done forever ... your pace does have a limit (0:00/500m)

The point I was making is that over time (weekly?) you would improve a little bit. Trying to make a big jump is a likely a "handle down" request in the making.

JimR

Jim:

Right, which is different than some "plans" where every workout is attempted at slightly higher pace, day-by-day, than the prior. That would be the sure road to ruin!

-- Mark

[rowmyboat]

If you're competitive and enjoy challenges then it's no good sitting down to just erg for erging's sake - little by little improvements can be made - how else will you know when you've peaked!!

The body is amazing at times, who said you can't keep improving?
It's all about plan, pace and most importantly attitude.

Don't tell yourself you've reached your peak, that's a sure way of stopping progress, but aim that little bit higher each time you sit down and the results will come.

[ragiarn]

Jim:

What's frustrating is not knowing how much, or when, they have an effect. For example, today I'm not sure I could have driven the heart rate much more above 141. It was about 90 minutes after taking my meds.

I see an entry in last year's log, when I was keeping track of when I did a workout during the day, and I had a 164 HR at the end of a 5K race on RowPro -- which ended at about 9:00AM (after cool down). I am sure I did not take my meds before the race. I saw an entry a week or so later for a 167 at the end of a 1K race. Same start time. No meds before race.

So, before meds, it looks like the limit for me is probably about 170 (near calculated max), but shortly after meds (they're in the system), there appears to be a decrease ... maybe significant. Does this change thorughout the day as the medication gets processed? I'll bet it does.

I may have to play around with my workout times and track like-for-like workouts to see what happens, keeping my medication intake time the same.

I am also definitely going to talk to my Doc about the possibility of changing meds.

Wow!

-- Mark

Mark the beta blocker is preventing your heart from reaching it's true potential. I hesitate to ever give medical advice in a forum such as this in particular without knowing all the reasons why a person has a specific problem or the necessary details.

Beta blockers prevent the sympathetic system from stimulating the heart to go faster. It is a great drug for patients who have heart disease, especially diabetics and patients who have congestive heart disease. It is generally considered bad medical practice not to give these patients some form of beta blocker.

At one time Beta Blockers were routinely prescribed as one of the first line medications for blood pressure control and I for one have often used it especially if I felt that some compenent of a patient's blood pressure was due to stress factors.

However recently (within the past year) the new guidelines have discouraged the use of beta blockers as a primary treatment for blood pressure unless a patient has either a primary heart problem such as congestive heart failure.

I would suggest that you discuss this situation with your physician and look for other medications which are just as good if not better for blood pressure control without the side effects of beta blockers.

Beta blockers are definitely less expensive but in your case may be counter productive. The extra co-pay would be worth the improved performance.

If you would like to email me personally look me up in the data base for daily mileage (present average about 4000 m daily). Based on following your posts in the WP program I would doubt that you have heart disease but I would hate to try to and second guess your physician who knows your conditions certainly much better than I do.

[mpukita]

Dr. Ralph:

Thanks. I am going to talk to my Doc again. I left a message with his assistant and he may not have gotten the gist of what I was asking. He seems reluctant to take me off the beta blockers, which I'm on solely for high BP ... from about 10 years ago ... when I was not as fit as I am now, and 20 pounds heavier.

Here's a graph of what the beta blockers do to me:

http://www.dropshots.com/day.php?userid ... ime=083614

(click on the graph to make it bigger and more readable)

These are 4 identical 2x5Kx18SPM at 2:13 (or so) pace ... done 4 consecutive days. They are like WP Level 4 workouts, but at constant rate and pace.

HR is on top; EPOC on bottom. The two top tracings are workouts pre-meds. The bottom two, 90 to 120 minutes post meds. Interesting results. But, now I see why very early morning RowPro races and later afternoon venue races seem "easy" when earlier morning venue races and hard workouts after my meds seem "killer".

As well, the top two workouts seemed like a breeze to me ... I could have done another 5K piece, or maybe two more 5K pieces, at same rate and pace. The two lower workouts were "work".

I spoke with a Canadian doctor friend of mine yesterday who works with athletes. First, he said he has 95%+ of his normal HBP patients on ACE inhibitors. Second, he said he would never have athletes on beta blockers.

When I explained my ability to be at 25th to 30th percentile in the rankings for shorter pieces, but well back for longer pieces, he said it's what he would expect, since being able to get HR high for shorter sprints is much less important than for long pieces.

Have I been struggling more than I should because of the meds?



I think I have.

If I can get this sorted, it might contribute to getting me some better times!

Thanks -- Mark

[ragiarn]

Dr. Ralph:

Thanks. I am going to talk to my Doc again. I left a message with his assistant and he may not have gotten the gist of what I was asking. He seems reluctant to take me off the beta blockers, which I'm on solely for high BP ... from about 10 years ago ... when I was not as fit as I am now, and 20 pounds heavier.

Here's a graph of what the beta blockers do to me:

http://www.dropshots.com/day.php?userid ... ime=083614

(click on the graph to make it bigger and more readable)

These are 4 identical 2x5Kx18SPM at 2:13 (or so) pace ... done 4 consecutive days. They are like WP Level 4 workouts, but at constant rate and pace.

HR is on top; EPOC on bottom. The two top tracings are workouts pre-meds. The bottom two, 90 to 120 minutes post meds. Interesting results. But, now I see why very early morning RowPro races and later afternoon venue races seem "easy" when earlier morning venue races and hard workouts after my meds seem "killer".

As well, the top two workouts seemed like a breeze to me ... I could have done another 5K piece, or maybe two more 5K pieces, at same rate and pace. The two lower workouts were "work".

I spoke with a Canadian doctor friend of mine yesterday who works with athletes. First, he said he has 95%+ of his normal HBP patients on ACE inhibitors. Second, he said he would never have athletes on beta blockers.

When I explained my ability to be at 25th to 30th percentile in the rankings for shorter pieces, but well back for longer pieces, he said it's what he would expect, since being able to get HR high for shorter sprints is much less important than for long pieces.

Have I been struggling more than I should because of the meds?



I think I have.

If I can get this sorted, it might contribute to getting me some better times!

Thanks -- Mark

I am in full agreement with your Canadian Dr.s approach to HBP treatment. In the past beta blockers were more commonly used for BP control but now are considered 3rd or 4th line drugs except for patients with diabetes, congestive heart failure, post MI and/or cardiac arrythmias.

Once you are off of the beta blockers you will be able to get your heart rate up to its potential.

Good luck

[ranger]

To me, the best workout for mental toughness is to pick a challenging pace and then row until you have to handle down. There is no set distance. There is no one and nothing to tell you when to stop. You just have to find your own best level of effort.

In the fall 2003, before I broke my own lwt 50s WR, I did this exercise with 1:45 pace. I started with daily 5Ks at 17:30. Then I just tried to row further and further each day.

Before BIRC, I got to 9K.

In the fall of 2003, I also liked to do this with 1:42. I started with 2K. Before BIRC, I was getting regularly to 4K.

In each session, I did these open-ended, handle-down rows first, after warming up. Then I went on to do other things.

Great sharpening routines.

ranger

[ajohnston]

As a college rower you don't really think about putting the handle down. If your rowing with someone, especially someone you will be seat racing in a few months, putting the handle down isn't an option. The only time I've put down the handle in front of team mates is when it hurt because I had torn a tendon in my wrist.
When erging by myself over summer break or during winter break by myself putting down the handle is more of an issue. Winter break especially since we've been training hard since september is when I really have to look out for burn out. The way I've found to fight it is with entering lots of erg contests and when feeling really burnt out doing lots of short pieces instead of one long piece.