Annual Meter Board

[GeorgeD]

Why do I not question your 2K time?

Yes, but also:

Because it was done at a race!

Which, IN MY OPINION, is the only result that matters. The rest, because it's an honor system, are just for motivation, camaraderie, and personal challenge. Just my OPINION of course. So, my OPINION is also that it's fruitless and pointless to get one's panties in a wad over honor rankings. Go do a race and show your stuff ... venue race, RowPro race ... it doesn't matter. Just go race.

For example, all your talk about training and times is all background noise to me ... my opinion of course. It's like you are just an Internet discussion board ID to me until I see some result, for some race, for you, since I haven't met you or watched you row.

Just my way of looking at it.

Mike I dont understand why if this 'discussion' revolves around an honour system that you personally dont feel is worth getting worked up over ... you seem to join in all guns blazing. I think for many the 'annual meter board' is a personal challenge as they are not 'racers' so I dont see it as an issue if they ask/question in a reasonable manner (as this was done) if someone could clarify what appears to be either an anomaly or an amazing effort.

I have no doubt that if the situation is clarified and the meters are genuine that someone else who has put in the effort to make that first page would be one of the first to congratulate the person involved.

George

[GeorgeD]

"Cheats never prosper”.

– Chad Williams. June 22, 2006

Jerks never seem to shut up!

I have to say that I find your posts disturbing in that they are seldom constructive and often vitriolic - I am sure you have much more to offer if you took the time and effort.

George

[mpukita]

Mike I dont understand why if this 'discussion' revolves around an honour system that you personally dont feel is worth getting worked up over ... you seem to join in all guns blazing. I think for many the 'annual meter board' is a personal challenge as they are not 'racers' so I dont see it as an issue if they ask/question in a reasonable manner (as this was done) if someone could clarify what appears to be either an anomaly or an amazing effort.

I have no doubt that if the situation is clarified and the meters are genuine that someone else who has put in the effort to make that first page would be one of the first to congratulate the person involved.

George

George:

First, the response about racing was aimed at Chad's response and comes from a long line of posts questioning a number of peoples' performances. My response here was not directed at Eric's initial post ... but to Chad's subsequent post(s).

Second, I join in "guns blazing" because this is just the kind of post that started the nasty stuff that happened a while back. I chose to analyze this to ... frankly ... put as much emphasis on why one would ask a question such as this as on why one might post specious entries in the challenge. I believe I have that right, and I did not do it in any kind of nasty way. "Guns blazing" is an interesting phrase choice ... I would say that I debate and discuss with passion ... not with "guns blazing".

The funny thing (I feel) is that while people feel it's OK to question someone's integrity (which is what they are doing when they ask these questions if we're all really honest with ourselves, I feel) in the name of defending the honor of the honor system, it's not OK for someone (like me) to question their motivation, or vigorously support my position, which I'm only giving in response to their post.

Put another way, they put their question or assertion out for the WORLD to see and read, why shouldn't I (or anyone else) be free to question, comment, critique, or expound?

I understand the whole distinction that many are not racers and the challenge board is a motivation for them. But, since they join knowing the honor board is just that, an honor system, they should be prepared ... because human beings have been know to cheat from time-to-time ... that it will not be a perfect system.

Now, we can certainly "police" it to try to make it more "perfect", which is what Eric, I believe, was trying to do. He's looking for some substantiation that the meters are real. But, he may get nothing. Nigel may continue to live on in reality or infamy, and we may never know which.

The point I was making, and still am, is a suggestion that one set their own personal goals and targets and be pleased with them ... a bit of self-actualization as it were. Take satisfaction that you've achieved something great, and do so without needing adulation from others (although just about everyone here will certainly applaud everyone else's accomplishments, large and small!).

And/or, take the satisfaction of seeing your name in lights, but don't get too bent out of shape because some above you might appear to be fraudulant ... maybe they are, maybe they aren't ... there's no good way to tell unless we make everyone prove their entries and there does not appear to be a good way to do that.

Cheers ... Mark

[Bob S.]

Check out:

http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=67771#67771

In my opinion, Mr. Ferris' explanation is quite reasonable.

Bob S.

[Gus]

Check out:

http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=67771#67771

In my opinion, Mr. Ferris' explanation is quite reasonable.

Bob S.

To save you having to go there to see the above referenced post:


Tom:

I thought you would like to know that Nigel Ferris e-mailed me today with the following note. I believe that it confirms your thoughts about split times and multiple events per day. With your premission, I will forward you message (above) to Nigel as we likely have a friend who simply enjoys rowing.

Rick

Dear Mr Fahle,

I have read what you had to say about me on the Concept2 Training Forumand thought you ought to know that I will 69 in August.I am getting Dena to put a photo of me in the car I use for my full time business in my profile.Please note that I am available in my job for 24 hours and 7 days a week so I find it very easy to find 6 hours to do some rowing.Plus as I have an age gene in me it helps.I have been involved in some sort of sport since I was a kid.I rowed on water from the age of 21 to 40,then did jogging and running and half marathons,then went on to Concept 2 from Feb 1st 2006.Yes on 21st June I rowed at different times from 4am to 10.45pm = 18hours and 45mins and I managed to clock up 84,389meters. I row when most people are watching the TV.I have actually done one afternoon and in to the late evening ten 5ks = 50,000 meters at 22- 23 mins per 5k fter having done in the morning starting early a further 50k made up of a number of 30 and 60 min rows = 6,450 and 12,700 each.You see I break up my rows I dont do long rows like you guys.I have done a few half marathons and I intend soon to have a go at a 100k with breaks for stretching,drink and towelling down.I will probabaly ened up with 80k.Anyway Mr Fahle I have tried emailing Tom or Major Tom as Bruce Turtle calls him but my email could not get through to tell him a few facts about myself before he starts writing about me. Yours sincerely Nigel Ferris

I'm in awe that someone would have the time and want to spend so much of it on the erg!

[ehagberg]

I still don't quite buy it. He went from "rowing seriously on a Concept2 Machine since 1st Feb 2006" at which point he was doing 12k or so a day to doing 80k or so a day out of the blue about a month ago.

[mpukita]

I still don't quite buy it.

I still don't buy it. = I don't believe these meters are real. = This guy is a liar.

I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth here. I'm also not trying to state whether I think this guy is real or a fake. I don't care. If he is real, he's being unjustly accused of being a fake. If he is a fake, questions like this just feed the beast.

George, this is just how the junk started last time. Someone starts out with what some (not me) will say is just an innocuous comment about someone else's rowing claims. Then, when someone like me pushes back, the veneer starts to crack, and how the original poster really feels comes oozing out. Why not just post the allegation right up front and save time?

[ehagberg]

I haven't heard an argument that makes the huge jump in volume plausible, and until I do, I'll continue to view his name at the top of the list with disbelief.

I won't, however, continue to debate this forever and will let the thread die if others are somehow convinced.

[johnlvs2run]

I still don't buy it. = I don't believe these meters are real. = This guy is a liar.

That sounds a bit harsh.

Nigel's details do look quite plausible and convincing, though I wonder where he is driving his car 24/7 when he's rowing for 18 hours. Maybe he's not really working and driving all those hours.

His going at 22 to 23 minutes for a 5k is a pace of 2:12 to 2:18, which is a pretty good clip. That indicates to me that his half marathon time would be reasonably quick.

Good for you, Nigel, for raising the standards.

[Yankeerunner]

I haven't heard an argument that makes the huge jump in volume plausible, and until I do, I'll continue to view his name at the top of the list with disbelief.

I won't, however, continue to debate this forever and will let the thread die if others are somehow convinced.

It probably is best to let it die. Those who want to believe will believe. During my years of running there were several similar instances.

Rosie Ruiz was probably the most recognized case. When she crossed the finish line first and the experienced runners called her a fraud there was a kneejerk reaction against the skeptics. People wanted to believe that a relatively pudgy unknown could just waltz in and win the Boston Marathon. Makes a great human interest story. When it was pretty well proven a few days later that she cheated (something she never admitted to herself) her defenders pouted that it wasn't so much the questioning by the accusers, but their "attitude" that was so offensive and therefore even though they were right they were wrong.

Less known except in the circles of serious runners was the fantastic Stan Cottrell. He came from nowhere in the early 1980's to set amazing records for running accross the USA, running the Great Wall of China, running the length of Cuba, etc., etc. etc. Experienced ultramarathoners smelled a rat when his exploits made their way into the running magazines. They wondered aloud why he didn't do any of the sanctioned ultra races, which he would have won in a breeze if his other runs were real. He came back with assurances that he would indeed be doing all the major ultra distance races and shooting for the records. To the best of my knowledge he has yet to compete in even one, some quarter century later, although he continues to do his solo act and make his own publicity. He gets sponsorship and apparently raises money for charities (as well as for himself), but has no standing amongst serious runners or the running magazines.

A bit more recently Sri Lankan Suresh Joachim gained brief fame, before the running community backed off, for breaking the WR for 1000km on a track in Australia. As the story unfolded it was revealed that he had shortly beforehand broken the WR for standing on one leg (three days), and was planning to go to Canada a couple of months later to take a shot at the WR for walking backwards for 24 hours. The record was (is?) 153km, and he planned to do 160km. Afterwards he was going to break the endurance record for ballroom dancing of 215 days. I am NOT making this stuff up! A quick search of Google or some other search engine should confirm these things.

Depending on your point of view the erging community is far more trusting, or gullible, than those in other sports. Heck, ranger has written on the UK forum that he will be doing a trial on September 31st. Until October 1st rolls around we should give him the benefit of a doubt that this year there will be a September 31st.

Rick

[GeorgeD]

Hi Mike, just off to my daughters weekend sport for a few hours so have not had time to read you response in any detail but will get back to you mate

cheers George

[Byron Drachman]

I square after the feather just a bit too late and bury the blade ... gotta stop that ... gotta learn the early roll-up which seems to still elude me)

Hi Mark,

But isn't the challenge to row correctly fun?

The early roll-up, starting feathering with the hands over the ankles and slowly feathering and having the blades squared at the catch, also eluded me at first. It's so easy to use the blades as outriggers and skim the surface, and then do a flip-catch. A cure is to do some rowing with the blades squared. It's very hard to do, but keep at it. Once you can row with the blades squared, you'll have good balance and you can get the blade work right.

To practice keeping the blades at the correct depth, you can take some strokes, then place the blades in the water at the catch, hold the oars very loosely, and let the run of the boat move the oars. You'll notice that the blades find just about the correct height by themselves, and you can feel how your hands move: very level from the catch to the finish.

I'm talking like I'm an expert. I'm not. I took a learn to row course last year and I'm just reporting what worked for me.

I start the day with a couple of hours of sculling. The only days I miss are when the river is frozen or there are thunderstorms, or maybe if it is too windy, seldom a problem at daybreak. I just looked at my logbook. I did miss rowing on April 8, but I did a long bike ride that day that started early. A couple of days ago I ventured out between rains. I stayed close to the dock. I heard thunder, and I did my best imitation of Xeno Muller racing back to the dock. I got out of the water before the thunderstorm arrived.

Most days I do several hours of cycling in addition to the rowing.

I think I enjoy the C2 even more now that I'm doing most of my meters on the water. On the days I do use the ergometer, it seems to have a higher purpose--training for on the water.

Starting the day sculling puts me in a good mood for the whole day.

Byron

[GeorgeD]

Hi Mike,

I dont feel there is a lot of point in getting into a debate on this issue as they never seem to be resolved - but I do very much concede we are all entitled to an opinion.

There would be one comment I would make (cant resist) and that is your very first post on this thread pre-supposed that it was going to turn into something nasty whereas it seems to me that the instigating post was reasonably put and a reasonable question to ask..... and the poster (at that stage) was willing to concede that if it was all genuine then he was suitably impressed. Now if subsequent posts resulted in some less that 'honourable' motivation and behaviour becoming evident 'then hey' jump into the fray, but as I say that was not the case when you made the comment "here we go again"

regards George

[mpukita]

I square after the feather just a bit too late and bury the blade ... gotta stop that ... gotta learn the early roll-up which seems to still elude me)

Hi Mark,

But isn't the challenge to row correctly fun?

The early roll-up, starting feathering with the hands over the ankles and slowly feathering and having the blades squared at the catch, also eluded me at first. It's so easy to use the blades as outriggers and skim the surface, and then do a flip-catch. A cure is to do some rowing with the blades squared. It's very hard to do, but keep at it. Once you can row with the blades squared, you'll have good balance and you can get the blade work right.

To practice keeping the blades at the correct depth, you can take some strokes, then place the blades in the water at the catch, hold the oars very loosely, and let the run of the boat move the oars. You'll notice that the blades find just about the correct height by themselves, and you can feel how your hands move: very level from the catch to the finish.

I'm talking like I'm an expert. I'm not. I took a learn to row course last year and I'm just reporting what worked for me.

I start the day with a couple of hours of sculling. The only days I miss are when the river is frozen or there are thunderstorms, or maybe if it is too windy, seldom a problem at daybreak. I just looked at my logbook. I did miss rowing on April 8, but I did a long bike ride that day that started early. A couple of days ago I ventured out between rains. I stayed close to the dock. I heard thunder, and I did my best imitation of Xeno Muller racing back to the dock. I got out of the water before the thunderstorm arrived.

Most days I do several hours of cycling in addition to the rowing.

I think I enjoy the C2 even more now that I'm doing most of my meters on the water. On the days I do use the ergometer, it seems to have a higher purpose--training for on the water.

Starting the day sculling puts me in a good mood for the whole day.

Byron

Byron:

Yes, it is a great thrill to work to get it right. Now, it's a great feeling to put two great strokes together. I cannot wait until it grows to 5, then 10, etc.

Everything you've mentioned is logical, simple to understand from a "mechanics" point of view, but hard for me to DO. I have a few problems. One, I try to use too much power rather than work on technique first, speed second. We both know that most of the speed comes from proper technique, but for me to control the temptation to increase pressure it's very hard.

I also have done all the drills to understand how easy it is to just allow the blade to find its own proper depth ... they're uniquely designed that way, what a great idea! (... he says sarcastically)

This again, is a pressure issue for me. It's also sometimes a set of the boat issue in the eight, but mostly it's me, not the boat.

The early roll-up is interesting. You talk about doing it "over the ankles". My coaches are saying we should be starting over the knees. I can't seem to start that early (to "unfeather" that is). I feel like I'm just barely getting the blade feathered and out of the water when the hands are over the knees.

I was thinking about you last lesson when I was watching some of the singles. Do you row with a group, or alone? If alone, what safety precautions do you take? I have seen many people say one should NEVER row alone, others say it's OK with proper gear (I assume a vest-like PFD, waterproof phone/radio/beacon, etc.). I'd be real interested in your thoughts. You can PM me to keep us from further hijacking this thread.

Thanks ... Mark

[johnlvs2run]

Brief message.