Specific 2k Pacing (Per 500m)

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
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Mike Caviston
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Post by Mike Caviston » June 1st, 2006, 5:46 pm

Doug, I summarized some of the races from the Cal-Washington dual:
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In all four races, the early leader loses (Washington’s men’s & women’s 1V, Washington’s men’s 2V, and Cal’s women’s 2V). What I find interesting is that in each race, both crews fade continuously after the opening 500m; the key difference being that the losers start faster and fade more. This was early-season racing so I doubt if anybody knew their true speed or had developed what they thought was the optimal race plan, so I suspect if we could analyze the NCAA or IRA results we’d see improved pacing strategies all around.

The question about how much of a factor pacing strategy has on racing is a good one. The short answer is, a lot more than just about anybody realizes! In looking at the data I’ve gathered from men’s open indoor races (WIRC & BIRC), it’s clear that those who open with a 500m split that is 3% or more above final average power, have final power outputs at least 20W less than those who start more conservatively. That suggests about 4.5 seconds are lost in a 2K race by the least aggressive fly-and-die artists (and God help some of the poor souls who start out 10%, 20% or more ahead of pace). How can we extrapolate that to races on the water? I couldn’t say exactly, except to suggest that good vs. bad pacing for a given crew will result in at least a 2 second swing in 2K times, and probably 10-15 seconds in some cases. How much potential speed is lost of course depends on how bad the actual pacing is, but it seems obvious that a good crew with bad pacing may lose to an average crew, or an average crew with optimal pacing will have a chance against a good crew with mediocre pacing.

Most likely those races at Redwood Shores were a foregone conclusion (except perhaps for the women’s 1V), but I’m sure they could have been closer. Sometimes the difference in opponents’ abilities can distort the picture, and sometimes a crew is just so dominant it can do just about anything and win. (I’ve looked at the Danish men’s light 4 w/o for the past decade, with some interesting results that I’ll get around to putting up eventually). Again, I’d like to see this year’s NCAA final splits, since Princeton was so dominant. But one thing I’d really like to stress is that while good pacing brings out the best in a crew, there’s no magic race plan that can improve a crew’s speed beyond its own physiological capacity. College crews (and probably elite crews) can be pretty superstitious and hilarious with some of their beliefs about race plans and what gives them the edge. Everybody has some “big move” that they use somewhere in the middle 1000m that they think of as their secret weapon (which they give some risqué name like the “Get Out Of Our Way Motherfuckers While We Row Your Bitch Asses Down Power 20”), but what makes the difference is optimal expenditure of energy to maximize speed while delaying fatigue as long as possible. In my experience, if a program or crew is up against an opponent who is favored, the coaches and athletes typically believe the best strategy is to go out hard, harder, hardest. For example, one year while I was working with UM, one of our crews was the underdog in an early-season race. In that race we were down by ¾ of a length at 500m, held steady during the middle 1000m, and came on strong in the final 500m to lose by ¼ length. When we faced the same crew in mid-season, we were even at 500m, lost a couple seats in the middle 1000m, and faded in the last 500m to lose by 1 length. When we faced the same crew a third time, we moved out to a ½ length lead by 500m, faded to a deck length back at 1500m, and lost by open water. So, the strategy after every loss was to start harder the next time. The result was to lose by more. Unfortunately, you can’t just will yourself to be faster.

Mike Caviston

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Post by dougsurf » June 2nd, 2006, 12:42 am

"Unfortunately, you can’t just will yourself to be faster. "

That's pretty profound. Has anyone beside me heard a coach preach just the opposite, that you just need to "dig deeper" or some such saying, when it hurts at the end?

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Post by PaulS » June 2nd, 2006, 8:49 am

Reminds me of a reference from Steve Fairbairn, it was something another coach said, and you must work out your best scottish accent to imagine it properly.

"It's all got to come from within you, laddies!"
Erg on,
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Post by TomR » June 2nd, 2006, 2:02 pm

Excerpted from the Princeton Univ web site, re the women's crew NCAA championship race:

"The team . . . jumped out immediately and held a six-seat lead within 25 strokes over Brown. By the 500-meter mark, Princeton held an open-water lead over its Ivy League rival.

"'That's the way we row,'" head coach Lori Dauphiny said afterwards. 'We get out quickly, but we've done that before and lost. We were committed to the body of the race, those 1,000 meters in between.'"

By the way, Ms. Dauphiny is a Univ of Washington grad.

Tom

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Post by Carl Henrik » June 2nd, 2006, 4:17 pm

Mike,

Interesting analyses. I feel there are many things more that could be said.

Consider a team that know their competitors are better. It's quite possible that they think they will have the most fun through fly and die, to lead for a while, and therefore do it. Because this team wasn't the best, they finished last. I was not because of the flie and die though.

Another team that also knows they lack in their ability might try take a lead early on to get the best psychological position and the rest of the field doubtful in that their will be any worth in even trying to take them on in the finishing sprint. At the finishing sprint, even with this psychological advantage, they were too slow though and finished last.

A third team is also slow, they haven't trained enough to know what intensity they should be at, in order to make sure they get a maximal effort, they start out hard. Once again this slow team that does a fly and die looses, but it's quite possible that this was still faster than if they had started too conservatively.

I believe all of these types of teams exist, and because of this, an anlysis on what types of race strategies are connected with which result does not tell if the race strategy was good or bad for final result. It might just be that the weaker teams tend to choose the fly and die method, not that they lost because of it.

To determine the use of fly and die strategy I prefer your physiological reasoning, that applies to the erg with little reservations.

But on the water I think a major factor in choosing race strategy should be the weather conditions.

Is there a head wind building up over the course towards the starting line? Then start hard to get past that bad water. You don't want to be running at 90% standing almost still for 2minutes, when at 100% you would get passed the same distance in one minute, with more gas left, and less time spent.

Is there a tailwind building up towards the finish? Once againg, start hard so that you can still "sail" in with what little you have left at the end, it's the same principle as with the head wind: use the energy where it will increase your speed with the most percentage.

Taking into account various weather conditions there are clearly occasions for disposing much of ones energy early on. Considering the physiological aspects though, and the uncertainty in ones potential and everyone elses, it might be good, even in the above situations, to settle for second or third place, perhaps one or two second behind the leader, and try to break them later on. But this is not optimal unless you and everyone else in the boat at the finish sprint have the best mentality on this particular race day!
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Post by Mike Caviston » June 2nd, 2006, 5:52 pm

Don’t confuse digging deep to bring forth your best effort with trying to magically create something that was never there in the first place. Many races are lost by athletes with ability that didn’t have the confidence or mental toughness to face the agony that peak performance demands. But an athlete without ability can’t make up for the deficit simply by wanting to be fast. I’ve worked with athletes that were willing to cut corners during their training and slack off on some workouts or avoid some of the strict & tedious parameters I recommend, justifying this by convincing themselves that on race day they would just want it more and be able to overcome their opponents. You race the way you train, but they deluded themselves by failing to recognize it is illogical to assume an opponent who is willing to work harder than you before the race wants to win less than you do.
Carl Henrik wrote:
It's quite possible that they think they will have the most fun through fly and die, to lead for a while, and therefore do it.
If someone thinks it would be more fun to lose by a lot rather than lose by a little, fly-and-die is certainly the way to go.
Another team that also knows they lack in their ability might try take a lead early on to get the best psychological position and the rest of the field doubtful in that their will be any worth in even trying to take them on in the finishing sprint.
I suppose some inexperienced prep school crews might get psyched out by an opponent taking an early lead and therefore give up, but I don’t think it likely at the collegiate level and certainly not at the elite level.
A third team is also slow, they haven't trained enough to know what intensity they should be at, in order to make sure they get a maximal effort, they start out hard.
Then shame on them for not training enough to know the proper intensity.
But on the water I think a major factor in choosing race strategy should be the weather conditions.
I think that’s true in theory, but probably not in practice. Conditions at race course are just too unpredictable, and winds often kick up or die down or change directions while a race is in progress. However, for the sake of argument, if I knew for example the first 1000m of a course was flat water and the last 1000m was very choppy, I’d consider pushing harder for better position by the 1K mark. Though as I think about it some more maybe not, since not having the energy reserves to deal with the rough conditions will probably be even more costly than establishing an early lead will be beneficial. That exact scenario occurred at the NCAA (women’s college national) championship in 2003 at Eagle Creek Reservoir, Indianapolis, IN. (The venue is often sarcastically referred to as “Windy-anapolis”.) The start was relatively protected but the finish was almost unrowable. The UM varsity eight had successfully been coming from behind all season, but the head coach was nervous about using that strategy for the championship race under those conditions. In the end we decided to stick with what had been working and, typically, came from 6th place at 500m to eventually flirt with 1st and ultimately finish 2nd (UM’s best-ever finish at the championship regatta). As I think about it now, I’m thinking the rough conditions at the finish made it more of an advantage to start conservatively, not less.
It might just be that the weaker teams tend to choose the fly and die method, not that they lost because of it.
How many more hundreds of rowing races would I have to analyze, and how many more sports besides rowing, before you would begin to suspect the link between losing and fly-and-die is not just coincidental?

Look, there are still people who smoke despite all the Surgeon Generals’ warnings and all the research that links cigarettes to cancer and heart disease. So I’m not particularly surprised or upset that anyone would look at the information I’ve provided and decide it’s still a good idea to go out really hard at the start of a race. So feel free to use whatever race strategy you think will work best.

Mike Caviston

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Post by tomhz » June 3rd, 2006, 4:35 am

Mike Caviston wrote:How many more hundreds of rowing races would I have to analyze, and how many more sports besides rowing, before you would begin to suspect the link between losing and fly-and-die is not just coincidental?

Look, there are still people who smoke despite all the Surgeon Generals’ warnings and all the research that links cigarettes to cancer and heart disease. So I’m not particularly surprised or upset that anyone would look at the information I’ve provided and decide it’s still a good idea to go out really hard at the start of a race. So feel free to use whatever race strategy you think will work best.

Mike Caviston
True :D :D

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Post by Carl Henrik » June 4th, 2006, 7:41 am

Mike,


You can analyze as many races as you like, but as long as you don't show that the method by which you chose the races to analyse creates a set representative for all races (of interest) it's just tricking yourself and everyone else of the value of any correlations you find.

Even when you do show your selected races are representative for all races (of interest) and do find a correlation, that does not imply that there is a causation between the two or the strength of this causation.

For example a third factor may cause both the quick start and that the team looses, in which case they will correlate stronger than any causation between them would have. One such factor could be that the badly trained teams with lacking conficence tend to choose to start out hard. Is it so? Well, we don't know, so we can't read too much into any correlations without giving some reasoning.

Now, I believe negative splitting (in a physiological sense) is good to get the most energy out of the body and will give you the best erg times. But as most rowers realize there is much more room for being inefficient on the water than on the erg, or in other words: Ergs don't float.

As mentioned, weather conditions have much higher impact than race strategy. Not even an extreme fly and die will get you one minute slower physiologically = on the erg. Being trapped in rough water will. As usual being efficint in rowing is more important than just powering out the most energy over the track.

So, you are free to employ what ever racing strategy you like aswell. But doing so I hope you are able to consider the effect of weather that I pointed out to you (I think I got half way through), as well as the mentality of the athletes, being what they are, and not necessarily what you want them to be.

I'm actually quite surprised by your onesidedness on this matter, given how the Wolverine Plan is meant to let people understand more than one aspect of training and achieve the knowledge to adapt to various situations. This is what I've done here and I believe I've reached those who are interested.

Take care. Happy racing.
Carl Henrik
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Post by PaulS » June 4th, 2006, 10:54 am

Carl Henrik wrote:Mike,
I'm actually quite surprised by your onesidedness on this matter...
Carl,
Wow! There is a lost of convolution going on in your post, but attributing "onesidedness" to Mike, as if he only has considered one side, is truly "Ruppian".

Mike,
Be gentle. :wink:
Erg on,
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Post by Carl Henrik » June 4th, 2006, 12:18 pm

Paul,

I, and everyone, can't magically foresee what Mike has considered and not, only what has been said is the commonly available from this discussion. That's why I started out in this thread with saying that I felt more could be said about this matter of racing strategies and starts, and so I said some of it. I don't think that is very offensive towards Mike.

Clearly Mike interpreted my post as denying all effects he mentioned of pulling hard in the beginning, while my intention was only to add more aspects to the outspoken ones.

Along that confrontational line, Mike outlined a picture in his following post of me denying the effects of smoking, believing in magical abilities to will oneself to "supernatural powers" (voodoo ?) and other things I have neither said or even considered!

To this I could not resist to anwser with a bit of spice!

Yet I have no will to establish an unfruitful climate and will try to see such allegations run off me, starting with the Rupp-thing!
Carl Henrik
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1:13@lowpull, 15.6@100m, 48.9@300m, (1:24.4)/(1:24.5)@500m, 6:35@2k, 36:27.2@10k, 16151m@60min

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Post by Dickie » June 4th, 2006, 4:50 pm

Carl Henrik wrote:Mike,


You can analyze as many races as you like, but as long as you don't show that the method by which you chose the races to analyse creates a set representative for all races (of interest) it's just tricking yourself and everyone else of the value of any correlations you find.

Even when you do show your selected races are representative for all races (of interest) and do find a correlation, that does not imply that there is a causation between the two or the strength of this causation.

For example a third factor may cause both the quick start and that the team looses, in which case they will correlate stronger than any causation between them would have. One such factor could be that the badly trained teams with lacking conficence tend to choose to start out hard. Is it so? Well, we don't know, so we can't read too much into any correlations without giving some reasoning.

Now, I believe negative splitting (in a physiological sense) is good to get the most energy out of the body and will give you the best erg times. But as most rowers realize there is much more room for being inefficient on the water than on the erg, or in other words: Ergs don't float.

As mentioned, weather conditions have much higher impact than race strategy. Not even an extreme fly and die will get you one minute slower physiologically = on the erg. Being trapped in rough water will. As usual being efficint in rowing is more important than just powering out the most energy over the track.

So, you are free to employ what ever racing strategy you like aswell. But doing so I hope you are able to consider the effect of weather that I pointed out to you (I think I got half way through), as well as the mentality of the athletes, being what they are, and not necessarily what you want them to be.

I'm actually quite surprised by your onesidedness on this matter, given how the Wolverine Plan is meant to let people understand more than one aspect of training and achieve the knowledge to adapt to various situations. This is what I've done here and I believe I've reached those who are interested.

Take care. Happy racing.
As with any study that is done, there are always factors other than the ones being studied that can affect the outcome. The trick is to minimize these other factors. I think your ideas would have a lot of merit if the examples Mike had chosen were of lower class races, but he has chosen the very elite. In my opinion, the factors you mention are minimal for this group of athletes.

I think your choice of rough water to make your point is off the mark here as he is not comparing different things that might affect a race, but rather the effects of a more measured start versus a fly and die start. Surely rough water will affect the times more than the type of pacing used, but I think Mike has pointed out that two crews who are both rowing in the same weather, good or bad, will still be separated at the end by the type of racing strategy used.

Fred Dickie

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Post by Mike Caviston » June 4th, 2006, 5:29 pm

Carl Henrik wrote:Mike outlined a picture in his following post of me denying the effects of smoking, believing in magical abilities to will oneself to "supernatural powers" (voodoo ?) and other things I have neither said or even considered!
Who did what, now? I made some general observations. If you felt they were directed specifically at you, that may just be your conscience talking. You are attributing things to me I have not said.
Clearly Mike interpreted my post as denying all effects he mentioned of pulling hard in the beginning, while my intention was only to add more aspects to the outspoken ones.
You asked me to consider some points and I did. If you ask a question, don’t get upset if you get an answer you don’t agree with. If you have something to support your views besides your own speculations, let’s see it.
For example a third factor may cause both the quick start and that the team looses, in which case they will correlate stronger than any causation between them would have. One such factor could be that the badly trained teams with lacking conficence tend to choose to start out hard.

Well, I looked at 1147 crews in Olympic & World Championship finals. Are you really willing to suggest that half of them were badly trained and lacking confidence? I’ve also looked at the same athletes or crews in different races (i.e., Xeno or the California women’s eight) to illustrate how better pacing has resulted in superior performance.
But as most rowers realize there is much more room for being inefficient on the water than on the erg
I invite you to reconsider this statement and decide if this is really what you meant to say.
Ergs don't float.
Of course not. Ergs are approximately 28kg of mostly metal & a few bits of plastic. If I see David Letterman & Paul Shaffer about to toss an erg in the water playing the game Will It Float, I’m going to say “No”. But an erg is an excellent training tool, and a great way to find out which athletes have the physiological capacity to race well.

Mike Caviston

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Post by PaulS » June 4th, 2006, 8:08 pm

Mike, Thanks for being gentle.

Carl, "Ruppian" although inspired after a notorious "Rupp", is a descriptor, nothing more, nothing less, after all Freud would not have used the term Freudian. It was an observation, not an insult on your character, which seems to be quite good, you are just inconsistent (as illustrated by the post above) in this thread, an unusual thing for you.
Erg on,
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Post by dougsurf » June 5th, 2006, 10:19 pm

But Paul,

Isn't "Ruppian" kind of below the belt, a clear escalation of what could be combustable conversation?? :x

Mike & All,

Update. Maybe Mike will have access some data, but the IRAs were this weekend, and I'm happy to see that my Huskies redeemed themselves at the freshman level, taking gold away from favored Cal. Only trouble is that they did not cooperate with Mike. They blasted away as hard as ever to a solid boat length advantage by 500, and then held the lead the rest of the way, my sources tell me. (My son, who rows with the Washington freshmen, but not in this boat, has a friend in the Penn boat which took third.)

However there was something more of a measured attempt, as the following quote from huskycrew.com states. "As opposed to earlier races, where we shot out at a 47 and settled to a 37, today we started at 42 with length, settled to a 35-36, and just lengthened." But it was apparently length with power.

So go figure. Just one race. Suppose they might have potentially won by a wider margin with more even pacing. But when you don't have to, just who would?

I tend to agree with some of the gist of Carl's questioning. In a race, will even the most confident coach and cox tell his crew to just hold the pace and let one or more opponents run on out a whole boatlength or more ahead, telling their guys, "oh just chill, those fly-n-dyers will give it all back at the end"? I think most crews know that if they're down by some open water, then the contest is pretty well done. In this regard, if they blast out ahead of their own pace, but still can't make gain or stop from falling back, then they've got nothing to lose anyway by going all out. A race isn't for a PB time record. It's for a place at the finish. I think this is what we saw at the Cal/Washington dual, where both teams faded badly throughout. These two mean blood every time and are incapable of letting the other advance if they have the capacity to prevent it.

So, it makes some sense to me that those that were destined to lose anyway, automatically fly 'n die in a futile effort to prevent it, with nothing to lose, and maybe a prayer of a crab in the other boat. Fly 'n die is then both cause and result. Result of being underpowered anyway and having to keep up respectably, and the cause of finishing at worse of a loss than what would have been a sure loss anyway. Instead of data showing pacing normalized to each individual, I think perhaps there would be added significance if there were more cases on an absolute scale where the leader at 500 lost at the finish . But maybe there is (like the Cal/Wash dual), I haven't looked back at all the data as I type this.

- Doug

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Post by Mike Caviston » June 6th, 2006, 5:30 pm

I’ve said it before but I’ll say it again: there is nothing inherently wrong with taking an early lead. It’s certainly a rush to pass your opponents, but tactically I’d rather lead the whole way – as long as I didn’t have to pay too dearly (create too much early fatigue) to establish the lead. Once again, it’s not about absolute pace, it’s about relative pace – that is, pace normalized to one’s own performance. It’s possible for a fast crew to race within itself at the start and still grab the lead. It’s too bad split data isn’t available for the NCAA or IRA regattas, but I speculate that the Princeton women’s varsity eight or the Washington frosh men, while having fast starts in absolute terms, started no faster than their opponents in relative terms.

Here are some stats to consider form the Oly/WC finals I’ve analyzed. Out of 191 races, the leader at 500m went on to win 113 times (59.2%). 23 times (12%), the leader at 500m went on to finish 2nd. 17 times (8.9%) the early leader finished 3rd and 17 times finished 4th. 11 times (5.8%) the early leader finished 5th and 10 times (5.2%) finished last. Does this prove that going hard at the start to establish an early lead is the best strategy for winning? Apparently the vast majority of people involved with rowing believe so. But I believe these result merely reflect what Garland noted in the study I cited early in this thread, and what my results have verified: almost everybody goes out hard at the start. The typical pacing pattern for the international races I’ve looked at is 1st 500m @ 103%, 2nd 500m @ 99%, 3rd 500m @ 98%, and last 500m @ 100% of final average speed. Nearly everyone uses the same basic race plan, so why shouldn’t the early leader win most of the time?

But my analysis is not just about what crews actually do, but what they could do to ensure their best possible performance. My theme has been to suggest that for any individual athlete or crew, moderate starts with even/negative pacing will result in better performance than fast starts and a steady fade. The two dozen research articles from peer-reviewed journals I listed at the beginning collectively concur that fast starts are detrimental to performance. My experience in over twenty years of coaching, observing the success vs. failure rate of different pacing strategies, convinced me of the importance of proper pacing long ago. Furthermore, I’ve been using publicly available data which anyone can corroborate, to illustrate the effects of pacing on a variety of sports (running, swimming, cycling, skating) in addition to outdoor and indoor rowing. What I want to show is that performance is affected by universal physical laws more than individual beliefs, hopes, determination, etc.

Here is another set of stats from international rowing races: the average opening 500m of all crews that finished 1st was 102.8% of final speed. The opening 500m of 2nd-place crews was 102.3%; 3rd was 102.4%; 4th was 102.6%; 5th was 103.1%; 6th was 103.7%; and 7th was 104.3%. So the general trend was that slower crews’ relative starts were faster (the exception being the first-place crews, who started a little faster than the trend predicts. I have a theory that some of the winners distort the picture because they aren’t pushed to full extent; faster final times would reduce the relative % of the first 500m. But we’ll never know.). My previous analysis already showed a clear separation for top-3 vs. bottom-3 crews, and the same phenomenon was evident for all indoor races and all other sports. “Winners” started more conservatively than “losers”. But “win” and “lose” are simplistic terms; in fact, absolute performance correlates well with the relative intensity of starts in a fairly linear fashion. See the various correlation coefficients and trendlines calculated for different races. In some cases r > .9, and was often higher than .5. Consider that r^2 represents the total variation explained by the value being correlated. In this case, r = .7 means that 50% of the variation between subjects is explained by differences in pacing during the first 500m, and when r = .5, 25% of variation is explained by first 500m pacing. Does that seem small? Consider an event like the Open Men’s category at CRASH-B, which includes a couple hundred guys from various backgrounds. You would imagine that a number of other factors would also affect performance – genetic variation, amount/type of training & actual fitness, technique, years of competitive experience, as well as pacing for the final 1500m – so if pacing for the first 500m can account for as much as 25% of variation between competitors, I think that’s pretty darn good. In isolated Oly/WC finals, r is often close to 1. This makes sense: a collection of talented, motivated, well-trained athletes at peak performance such that the only significant factor to distinguish them is how they pace their race.

Which brings me back to a crucial point. In rowing, the majority of crews follow the same basic race plan: get out early and hang on. We can look at past results and see whether subtle or not-so-subtle variations on that basic plan have produced results more favorable than the traditional approach. I invite everybody to look at the available data and decide what they see. But don’t look at isolated individual performances. Don’t offer the Washington frosh or the Danish LM4- or Graham Benton as final proof that winners start fast. Look at the data as a whole. Some individuals have so much talent they can follow a less than optimal plan and succeed, but does that establish a rule everyone should follow? In some cases, we can see that the same athlete or crew performs better – relative to its other performances – with less aggressive pacing. To get the absolute best out of a crew, what is the best strategy to use? I know what I think. Everyone else can make their own decision.
In a race, will even the most confident coach and cox tell his crew to just hold the pace and let one or more opponents run on out a whole boatlength or more ahead, telling their guys, "oh just chill, those fly-n-dyers will give it all back at the end"?
In my experience, no. But in my opinion, they should. Still, the coach will probably tell the crew to hang with their opponent off the start and try to make it a battle of wills.
A race isn't for a PB time record. It's for a place at the finish.
You know, over the years I’ve gone round-and-round with both coaches and athletes on this very issue. And this attitude floors me every time. If you want to beat someone, will you have a better shot at doing it with your PB time, or a time that’s slower than your PB time? Think about it.

Mike Caviston

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