Off on a Tangent--HR based training

Francois · Post by **Francois** » May 28th, 2006, 12:18 pm

LJWagner wrote: If HR creep occurs earlier in moderately paced workouts, and slowing down little by little just controls it, you may need to see the plumbers.
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As long as your heart rate stays in a normal and consistent range for you, or improves, the numbers are just a monitoring device. But when heart rate behavior changes significantly, something is happening, and it may be time to consult a doctor.
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Lack of creep is a good thing, at whatever HR pace you are training at, be it 145 bpm, 130 bpm, 170 bpm, or 200 bpm. Using an HR monitor, you get a peek at what the heart is doing.

Thanks LJWagner for sharing your personal experience.
I am curious as to what you exactly mean by "heart rate creep". What was happening to your HR when you were doing your long pieces?

There has been several heart attacks that resulted in deaths amongst our provincial masters swimmers over the past few years, and most have been male in their forties. The notable exception was a 31 years old. I competed with him on Saturday April 8, and he died while biking on Sunday. He had set PBs at that swim meet, and his times, while not at WR level, were quite respectable. Maybe HR monitoring could have saved his life. It certainly made me realize that life can be fleeting, and that every day should be enjoyed to its fullest.

All the best!

Francois

Alledieps · Post by **Alledieps** » May 31st, 2006, 3:25 pm

This is a real newbie question on HR training.
I bought a HR receiver for my concept 2 model D (already have a transmitter) and have been getting more and more curious on HR training. What exactly is the point of HR training? I assume it is to gauge your output on the erg based on what is going on with your physiology rather than the pace you hold. For example: pulling at 145 bpm instead of pulling at a pace 20 seconds (per 500m) above your 2k time to reach a utilization level. Am i right or completely wrong here

Neb154 · Post by **Neb154** » June 5th, 2006, 9:31 pm

After readng all of this thread, eager to learn about whether heart rate training was a benefitial new avenue for myself this summer, sadly I can come to no definite conclusion. I think I might strap on the old heart rate band and see if it does any good, but I'm not sure, obviously, whether it is the best thing for my training or not. I do see a Northeastern rower around the club who trains only with the heart rate monitor, and is well below 6:10, so I guess it can't be that bad... But as this thread has seem to prove, who knows?

LJWagner · Post by **LJWagner** » June 6th, 2006, 12:32 am

Sorry for the delayed response.

Heart rate creep is simply a slow climb of the heart rate during a long session. I still have a slight creep after my triple bypass, but slower than when my heart was totally dependent on collateral circulation.

I've not used an HR monitor more than a few years, and primarily during my own rehabilations (infected valve in 2002, broken arm in 2004, strained valve in 2005, 3x bypass in 2006). Hmm. Not a good decade.

As noted in my signature, the biggest admonition I can give you is to give yourself a good graduated warmup, from light to moderate to hard and harder.

At University in 1971, I was the first admitted person on our crew to do a 10 minute piece on our erg. It was a moderate pace piece the entire 10 minutes. After a few minutes rest, I then put it at the equivalent of max drag, and cranked out an unheard of 1 minute piece. Our machine simply counted rpm. 500 was considered good, 600 incredible, and my outlandish 1 minute was 675. It would have been the equivalent of picking a suitable DF to challenge Xeno Muller. My point being warm-up preps your heart and all its little internal muscles and ligaments and things.

I connected the warmup to the better performance, but not to the heart warm-up. Its fun to just jump on whatever device you use, and get in a good workout. I would suspect people who are prone to this are most likely to suffer an unexpected cardiac event. Really bad news for a swimmer. Apparently holding your breath sets up a different kind of heart strain called a Valsalva something-or-other.

My research the last few years, for my own personal interest and benefit, comes to the conclusion that a good warm-up, while some-what "unmanly", leads to better athletic performances, and a much healthier heart.

Believe it or not, I suffered my valve strain watching a movie. Thriller and action movies set off my adrenal response and my heart goes into overdrive. Similar to sudden exertion, except parked in a chair. I have to give up those movies. I just watched a movie last night that did that to me once. HR popped up to 147 (I had forgotten to take the monnitor off). Later last night, and today, I've had the four and five fingers on my left hand numb.

I think using the training bands is a great idea with the HR monitor. You can see how long the heart can go prior to beginning to suffer its own fatigue as evidenced by the rate creeping up.

I would not be surprised to hear in a few years that HR creep partially reflects diminished blood flow to the heart due to atherosclerosis. If your heart rate stays higher than you think it should, and climbs faster than you think it should, it may be time to consider changing any bad dietary habits. Of course, it also may be too late, and the damage has been done. I suspect if your heart is healthy, you're one of these guys with a low resting HR and lower than normal blood pressure. My resting HR is a "high" 67, and BP is about 116/84.

My main factors, as I can figure, for HR trouble were:
father and grandfather with heart attacks at 57.
bowl of ice cream nightly for 20 years.
way too many workouts with too brief of a warmup, including weights.
not enough fruit in diet.
stress reaction to movies.
wife tends to be argumentive
I've been prone to chills all over since as long as I can remember, and that's a symptom of poor circulation, possibly cholesterol.

This inspite of
mother's family lives into 90's
ate vegies from childhood
exercise regularly
slim build
easy going 99.99% of the time.
don't smoke, drink, or do drugs

All that said, my long rows and treadmill work, even with severe cholesterol buildup , set me up to be able to exercise in spite of the problems. I've only done slow stuff (well, mostly) the last few years.

Three and a half years rowing in college, with good warm-ups, and another 6 years sculling later may have been the best insurance for my recent thrill ride (surgery).

The HR monitor is another tool to know what is going on inside you, and what is happening with the most critical muscle in your body. Being methodical in my rehab could not have been done as accurately without it. Likely regular training benefits the same way.

Neb154 · Post by **Neb154** » June 6th, 2006, 7:35 pm

Just a quick question on MHR... Is it okay to calculate one's MHR using a test on a bicycle or is it only applicable to rowing if done on an erg?

almostflipped · Post by **almostflipped** » June 7th, 2006, 12:40 am

Only applicable if done on an erg. MHR is motion specific, and frankly biking is likely to be the least accurate method due to the low amount of muscle mass used and physical position (not to mention possibly being unused to the motion). If you do not have access to an erg try running. I have found this tends to be closer to your erg MHR (+/- a few beats will not really matter, but I've seen biking be off by 10-30bpm).

Sean Seamus · Post by **Sean Seamus** » June 7th, 2006, 2:00 pm

almost flipped is correct
- or at least - that is to say -
ALL the books and articles I have read corroborate this point

LJWagner · Post by **LJWagner** » June 7th, 2006, 4:30 pm

My HR is all over the map depending on what I do, from bicycle, treadmill walking, walking steep, erg, exercycle, bicycle, bench step-ups, treadmill jogging, walking a lot of stairs, even swimming.

Jogging after a good walking warm-up, it pops up 30-35 points in 1 minute.

Seems I can have a clue about my hr depending on my breathing. Below 140, I breath normal. If breathing a bit heavy, it is likely 155 or better.

Today I walked 16 flights (360 steps) after a 1/2 mile walk warm-up. Walked around a few minutes, and my pulse was only 72. Great shakes. Its usually 102 or better after walking 16 flights.

Its definitely possile to pick a rate at which your HR stays stable for a period of time. But eventally it starts to sneak up. Any volunteers who want to do a long term report to only work out as long as the HR does not creep up ?

Duh. I more or less have done just that the past two years in my broken arm rehab (April 2004), mitral valve recovery/rehab (March 2005) and bypass recovery/rehab (January 2006) the past three months (first month doing very little). Definitely gained in strength and stamina without strain. One can't be in a hurry for improvement. My energy was actually at its best the last two months when I followed this well at least five days a week, including some light weight training. As I've done a bit less the last month, I don't feel as peppy. I actually felt outlandishly good in April early May. Got cocky and a bit sloppy. But I've noticed the difference quickly, and went over my rehab notes last night to see what I had been doing. Mainly avoiding HR creep on my cardio or weight work.

So there you go. Give it a whirl. Take a month with your HRM, train as long as you are keeping a stable HR, no creep. When HR creep occurs, its time for your cooldown. Note how you feel daily, and improvement over time. Then switch back to your normal training for a month, and report back again.

I suppose you could say I mostly gave myself a lot of extra rest days, but I now want to get back to the methodical work that got me feeling really good.

By the way, my own theory of the bands is that as your fitness improves, your training bands also move to a slightly higher HR. Some at least. If 1 year you breath hard at 180 bpm, but the next year you don't for the same workout, then you are performing better and using oxygen more effectively. For example, my work output at 135-140 bpm keeps going up post-surgery, and my breathing gets easier at the same time.

Compare hr creep to a strained valve. Walking very slow with a recently strained valve, one feels permanently out of breath and heart rate as if you are walking fast. Not unlike the way you feel after a PB effort rowing, except it is all day long. Maybe those long recoveries required after a really intense workout is your heart and other parts, healing itself from minor strains. My definite valve strain took about 8 months to recover fully without surgery.

I'll do my warm-ups, and mind my HR, and use onset of HR creep as the indication my workout is over. Its worked well for me the past year. Slow, but effective.