Matters of (Light) Weight

[TPMcT]

What do lightweights weigh? When are they required to weigh in? By what means is their weight to be measured? These questions are straightforward at any given race venue: Show up at the appropriate time, step on the scale provided, and if you’re under the limit, you’re a lightweight.

But these questions are by no means straightforward for the ranking system or for such informal competitions as the Nonathlon. Let’s consider the three questions in order.

What. It’s common to see the weight limit for lightweights expressed as: 165 lbs./75 kg for men and 135 lbs./61.5 kg for women. North American races use the pounds standard, and European races use the kilogram standard. The trouble is, 75 kg equals 165.346696638 lbs., and 61.5 kg equals 135.5842912437 lbs. So for those who weigh in under the kilogram standard, there is a “bonus” of approximately 5.5 ounces for men and a whopping 9.3 ounces for women.

The difference is not a problem for any given race, but which standard should one follow for the ranking board?

When. When I raced lightweights in college in the late 60’s, we were allowed to weigh in at any time after 5 p.m. on the day preceding the race, and there was only one weigh-in for a multi-day regatta. That changed after several wrestlers died in 1997 sweating themselves to compete in lower weight classes. Under FISA’s current standard for on-the-water rowing, the weigh-in must take place no more than two hours and no less than one hour before the scheduled start of the race. The big three races — the Crash-B’s, the BIRC, and the EIRC — now follow the FISA standard. Local indoor races tend to follow an ad hoc policy, for example, allowing a competitor to weigh in any time after the doors open and up to the start of his/her race.

Should those who wish to rank lightweight times follow the FISA standard, or is it sufficient to weigh oneself in the morning?

How. I’ve never been to a race, so I don’t know what sort of scale is used. I presume it’s either a Health-o-Meter balance scale — the sort you step on in the doctor’s office — or a fairly high-end digital scale.

I have an upper mid-range Tanita digital scale — it measures body fat in tenths of a percent. I presume its level of accuracy is equal to anything used at a venue race. I also have an old spring scale, lovingly preserved, on which I weigh about two pounds less. What is a reasonable expectation of accuracy in the scale one uses for weighing in?

I consider myself a lightweight even though this morning I weighed 167.2 lbs./75.9 kg. I weighed 162-163 lbs. in the morning for most of last year, but even then I couldn’t guarantee that at the time of my workout I was under either 165 lbs. or 75 kg within the FISA time window.

I have never posted a time on the ranking board as a lightweight at least in part out of the concerns that I have raised in this post. I want to be scrupulous, not only as a matter of honor, but out of prudence, because my times would place me at the upper end of my age bracket.

I would like to see the indoor rowing community reach a consensus on the issues I raise here. Until then, if and when I post a time as a lightweight, I will follow the FISA standard. Specifically, I will have weighed under 165 lbs. no more than two hours and no less than one hour before I row the piece.

[johnlvs2run]

Lightweight means lightweight.

For women and men rowing on an erg, lightweight means, respectively, 135 and 165 pounds or less.

To gain any medals or records, any lightweight rower should be require to weigh again immediately after rowing, to verify that s/he is qualified to be in the lightweight division.

[whp4]

Lightweight means lightweight.

For women and men rowing on an erg, lightweight means, respectively, 135 and 165 pounds or less.

To gain any medals or records, any lightweight rower should be require to weigh again immediately after rowing, to verify that s/he is qualified to be in the lightweight division.

http://www.crash-b.org/qualtimes.htm quotes the International Indoor Rowing Association rulebook as stating

Men 165 lbs/75 kgs and under
Women 135 lbs/61.4 kgs and under

The FAQ on the C2 logbook page simply says 165 and 135, with no unit specified (we can all be lightweights!)

I think I could get my weight down to 75 kg, but I'm not sure about 165 lbs - I better get a copy of that IIRA handbook to take to my weigh-in

Post-race weigh-ins for the winners might eliminate some of the abuse, but would be a nuisance for the organizers and the competitors. Better not drink too much water before stepping back on the scale! The roughly 1/4 lb difference between 165 lbs and 75 kg is about 1/2 cup of water. Do we do the weigh-in before or after getting a urine sample for the drug test? I also fail to see why the post-event weigh-in should only be forced upon the winners - all the other placings are gaining a benefit from the exclusion of the bigger competitors.

I don't care what weight anyone trains at, but it would be nice to know they actually competed at a weight consistent with the category in which their result is posted. Judging from ranger's results in Boston this year, it would seem that some of the potential for abuse has been closed by using the FISA standard (I'm assuming, but don't know, that this is a recent change).

Bill

[tgeldean]

Tim (the 1st poster) brings up some great points, and "lightweight means lightweight" doesn't really answer the questions.

I'm working on getting back to LWT status, but when I get there I'll still be in a similar position to the other Tim - borderline. So it's easy to say when you're 143# and nowhere close to the cutoff.

And weighing in AFTER a piece doesn't really make much sense. If it's a long enough piece, one will have most likely lost some weight anyway. And there's apparently no rules calling for that within the outdoor or indoor rowing community. The requirement basically states that if you "make the weight" in that 1-2 pre-race period, you've met the requirement and you're a lightweight per the rules. It doesn't MATTER what weight you are at any time after the weigh-in.

As to Tim's questions, here's my take:

What: The profile used for the ranking board actually asks for kilograms, so that's what I think should be used. To take it a step further, the powers that be should adopt a single standard (kg) for all indoor races, outdoor races, and the rankings. As long as they have a conversion chart/calculator available, everybody should be fine.

When: This is a tough one. It's not particularly convenient to have a personal weigh-in during the 1-2 hour period before rowing a ranking piece. If one wakes up in the morning, does one have to weigh in and then wait one hour before starting? Or if one gets home after work (or whatever) and wants to row a ranking piece, it's not particularly convenient to have the one hour waiting period. And yet there should be something official in place for people to go by. Should it be the FISA standard, anytime that day, anytime in the preceding 24 hours, or what?

How: I think the rule here should be that one weighs in on a reasonably accurate scale. I don't know how you can do anything other than ask people to be truthful here (until C2 comes out with the scale attachment for the rowing machine, along with the "Big Brother" style camera attachment to make sure you're actually rowing the entire piece).

I'm glad Tim asked these questions and posted his thoughts on this issue, because these are things that have been bouncing around in my head. Unfortunately, it's not a problem for me right now - at 178.5#, I'm a pretty clear heavyweight. When I get down to 170#, then it will start being more of an issue.

Tim Geldean

[johnlvs2run]

Judging from ranger's results in Boston this year, it would seem that some of the potential for abuse has been closed by using the FISA standard (I'm assuming, but don't know, that this is a recent change).

By FISA do you mean having the same standard of 154 pounds for lightweight men.

I most definitely agree to this.

[TPMcT]

Tim (the 1st poster) brings up some great points, and "lightweight means lightweight" doesn't really answer the questions.

I'm working on getting back to LWT status, but when I get there I'll still be in a similar position to the other Tim - borderline. So it's easy to say when you're 143# and nowhere close to the cutoff.

And weighing in AFTER a piece doesn't really make much sense. If it's a long enough piece, one will have most likely lost some weight anyway. And there's apparently no rules calling for that within the outdoor or indoor rowing community. The requirement basically states that if you "make the weight" in that 1-2 pre-race period, you've met the requirement and you're a lightweight per the rules. It doesn't MATTER what weight you are at any time after the weigh-in.

As to Tim's questions, here's my take:

What: The profile used for the ranking board actually asks for kilograms, so that's what I think should be used. To take it a step further, the powers that be should adopt a single standard (kg) for all indoor races, outdoor races, and the rankings. As long as they have a conversion chart/calculator available, everybody should be fine.

When: This is a tough one. It's not particularly convenient to have a personal weigh-in during the 1-2 hour period before rowing a ranking piece. If one wakes up in the morning, does one have to weigh in and then wait one hour before starting? Or if one gets home after work (or whatever) and wants to row a ranking piece, it's not particularly convenient to have the one hour waiting period. And yet there should be something official in place for people to go by. Should it be the FISA standard, anytime that day, anytime in the preceding 24 hours, or what?

How: I think the rule here should be that one weighs in on a reasonably accurate scale. I don't know how you can do anything other than ask people to be truthful here (until C2 comes out with the scale attachment for the rowing machine, along with the "Big Brother" style camera attachment to make sure you're actually rowing the entire piece).

I'm glad Tim asked these questions and posted his thoughts on this issue, because these are things that have been bouncing around in my head. Unfortunately, it's not a problem for me right now - at 178.5#, I'm a pretty clear heavyweight. When I get down to 170#, then it will start being more of an issue.

Tim Geldean

Tim,

It's nice to greet another member of our small, yet noble band of brothers.

I'm not particularly beholden to either pounds or kilograms, but I would like the community to agree on one or the other.

I agree that one's morning weight ought to be sufficient. After all, if I weight 162-63, as I will again soon, it's not a big deal to make the weight in the 1-2 hour period (which, for the sake of the discussion, I'm going to call the "FISA window"). The FISA window, though, is a small annoyance. As you note, it restricts the time of a ranking piece not only on weekdays, but even on the weekend. Still, it can be done if that's what is required.

As you say, the after-the-row weigh-in is just silliness. I checked one day and found that I had lost 3.5 lbs. in a workout that lasted just over an hour. And I wasn't killing myself.

The scale, though, is a bit more problematic. There are plenty of people who have been reported being heavier than they expected at a race. If one wants to be scrupulous and "what" and "when," then it only makes sense to apply the same rigor to "how."

By the way, I'm glad you're not in my age group. Those are some nice times.

[tennstrike]

Specifically, I will have weighed under 165 lbs. no more than two hours and no less than one hour before I row the piece.

Not totally unreasonable, but the standard was developed to allow for regattas to function on a timely basis. The logistics problems of a regatta don't apply when you are at home or in a gym. It doesn't take quite as long to hop on the erg after weighing in as it does to launch your shell and then get to the starting line in an event.

I would go with no more than 2 hours. That allows you to weigh in just before a workout where you plan to go for a personal best. If you are thinking Personal Best, it shouldn't be that hard to get from 167 to 165 in the few days before a particular workout.

[TPMcT]

. . . but the standard was developed to allow for regattas to function on a timely basis. . . .

This is not exactly true. The "FISA window" was adopted to prevent, or at least to exact a heavy price for, crash weight loss. And it is just one of several "when" standards currently in use.

Last year, for example, the Eastern Sprints published a weigh-in schedule for the men's and women's teams that began at 3 p.m. the day before the races. The Dad Vail scheduled the weigh-ins, if I remember correctly, before 8:30 a.m. on the day of the race.

Making weight isn't the issue. I could make weight this afternoon if it mattered. I want to develop a consensus on what is required of lightweights. In the absence of such a consensus, I'll follow the strictest standards out there. Assuming, of course, that I row a piece I think is worth ranking.

[whp4]

And weighing in AFTER a piece doesn't really make much sense. If it's a long enough piece, one will have most likely lost some weight anyway. And there's apparently no rules calling for that within the outdoor or indoor rowing community. The requirement basically states that if you "make the weight" in that 1-2 pre-race period, you've met the requirement and you're a lightweight per the rules. It doesn't MATTER what weight you are at any time after the weigh-in.

Yes, I think John is saying that it would be an improvement if the rules were to change in a substantial way, not arguing that the current ones aren't being applied correctly. I think I'm mostly convinced that the FISA weigh-in timing rules make it sufficiently unlikely that someone whose "natural" weight is too far over the line is going to be fully competitive even if they manage to beat the weigh-in procedure. Having no experience with the dehydrate for weigh-in/rehydrate for race drill, perhaps I'm overly optimistic.

As to Tim's questions, here's my take:

What: The profile used for the ranking board actually asks for kilograms, so that's what I think should be used. To take it a step further, the powers that be should adopt a single standard (kg) for all indoor races, outdoor races, and the rankings. As long as they have a conversion chart/calculator available, everybody should be fine.

Agreed. Though if we're going to be sticklers, the one linked to the profile page converts 165 lbs to 75 kg.

When: This is a tough one. It's not particularly convenient to have a personal weigh-in during the 1-2 hour period before rowing a ranking piece. If one wakes up in the morning, does one have to weigh in and then wait one hour before starting? Or if one gets home after work (or whatever) and wants to row a ranking piece, it's not particularly convenient to have the one hour waiting period. And yet there should be something official in place for people to go by. Should it be the FISA standard, anytime that day, anytime in the preceding 24 hours, or what?

Personally, I find it a little harder to get worked up about this matter for a piece for the unofficial rankings. I think I'd settle for the average of the weights immediately before and after the row being under the limit as sufficient. Yes, a long piece will allow some perceptible weight loss while rowing. You'll have to lose at least twice the "distance" to lightweight during the row to make it if you started over the limit. If you're going to attempt a world record row, do some planning and have enough time set aside for the FISA weigh-in window.

As for imprecise/inaccurate scales, at least a modern electronic one doesn't cost too much and has good repeatability, at least compared to a typical spring-based bathroom scale. "Traceable to NIST" seems like overkill...

Bill

[johnlvs2run]

Electronic, and accurately calibrated would be good.

[TPMcT]

Here is an article from Philadelhpia Inquirer on the new LWT weigh-in procedures for the Dad Vail Regatta: http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/sports/14549212.htm. The weigh-ins are now scheduled for the afternoon prior to the start of racing, as is the case with the Eastern Sprints.

The regatta made the change in the aftermath of the death of a Boston College rower at last year's regatta that may have been due to dehydration.

The change may be neither here nor there as far as posting times in the rankings are concerned, but it is food for thought.

[dennish]

Gentlemen, Nothing new from me but some observations. As a lightweight I have some strong feelings about Hwts that go through all sorts of dangerous weight loss rituals to weigh in as lightweights then go on a mad pig fest to row back up at the weight they train at. So I rather like the idea of a post race weigh to stop the lugs from abusing the system. ~~~But more fundamentally it seems to me the whole future of Lwt rowing is in some jeopardy. Few lwt (relative to hwt) international team boats are entered in international regattas. Even our own governing body (USRowing) declined to send a lightweight boat, even though they had met the international standard, but failed to met the standard set by the US team. This is very dangerous stuff. If there are not enough entries at these international regattas the race will be dropped from the program in the future. I sense/feel a drift toward the elimination, at worst, or a drastic cut back, at best, of lightweight rowing. Financially this makes some sense for cash strapped governing bodies, "lets only fund the high profile, contribution gathering boats" no sense throwing money away on boats that generate little interest and less income. Fair or not it seems that cash rules. I have quite drifted away frrom the original question, my apologies. Back on target. Weigh in in the window perscribed by FISA, for all races, heats, repercharges, finals. every time, no exceptions. (no once only weigh in for all days of a multiple day regatta). Use kilograms. Time for the US to get on board with the rest of the world (global community and all that) on weights and measures. For the ranking system, to complex to monitor, Believe who you know or believe to be honest and disregard the rest. (ie, don't know, don't care about Dwayne, Rob Freed, Cureton), but mostly enjoy the process of FRIENDLY competiton. By my definition liars and cheats are decidely not friendly, at least I don't want to call them friend. my two cents dennis

[ancho]

...
I have an upper mid-range Tanita digital scale — it measures body fat in tenths of a percent. I presume its level of accuracy is equal to anything used at a venue race. I also have an old spring scale, lovingly preserved, on which I weigh about two pounds less. What is a reasonable expectation of accuracy in the scale one uses for weighing in?

Tim: I don't know which is more accurate, but I would always weigh on the spring scale, makes you feel much better.
I once made it down to 74 kg. It was terrible, and wasn't enough for getting into a otw-lightweight crew, so I changed direction to a "stable" hwt
Well, let's see your rankings. When will you do that 2k?

Regards,

nacho

[ranger]

liars and cheats are decidely not friendly

People who insinuate (on no evidence) that others are liars and cheats in order to augment their position and denigrate their competition, are liars and cheats, and therefore not at all friendly. Those whom they accuse without foundation are not liars and cheats because of this name-calling. They are just victims of unnecessary nastiness and bad sportsmanship.

Keep it up, Dennis. You embarrass yourself.

ranger

[hjs]

This is very dangerous stuff. If there are not enough entries at these international regattas the race will be dropped from the program in the future. I sense/feel a drift toward the elimination, at worst, or a drastic cut back, at best, of lightweight rowing.

This would be best. in other compareble sports there are also no weightclasses. running, swimming, cycling. Lightweight are symply not 100% suited for rowing. They lack size.